Trust on Purpose

Enemies of Trust in the Domain of Care

September 06, 2022
Enemies of Trust in the Domain of Care
Trust on Purpose
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Trust on Purpose
Enemies of Trust in the Domain of Care
Sep 06, 2022

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Whether we mean to or not, we may behave in ways that make people question whether or not we care about them and what they value - a sure way to damage trust. Most of us don’t intend harm or disrespect. In fact, our intentions are often good and pure. Ila and Charles discuss very real examples of the things we do that show we lack care for others, the impact they have, and ways to avoid them.


We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.

Show Notes Transcript

Send us a message - we'd love to hear from you

Whether we mean to or not, we may behave in ways that make people question whether or not we care about them and what they value - a sure way to damage trust. Most of us don’t intend harm or disrespect. In fact, our intentions are often good and pure. Ila and Charles discuss very real examples of the things we do that show we lack care for others, the impact they have, and ways to avoid them.


We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.

Charles: Hi, I'm Charles Feltman.

Ila: And my nameis Ila Edgar. And we're here for trust on purpose. Charles, what are we talking about today?

Charles: We are talking about what I've called at times. Enemies of trust, the things that we do. And when I say we, I mean , pretty much all of us to some degree or another in some way or another do that tends to damage or even destroy trust with other people with whom we work. so I think what we're gonna do today is we're gonna take a look at the enemies of trust, those behaviors in the domain of care, specifically in the trust domain of. and what we're gonna do is talk about what those behaviors are and then ways of avoiding those behaviors, ways of retraining ourselves so that we can not do that. We can not step in the, open hole and fall down to the bottom of it. every time we walk down the same street, but just before we go there, I know we've spoken about this several times before, but I wanna just establish that building trust in the domain of care is truly fundamental.

Charles: To the capacity to work together well with people it in a way kind of glues together, all the other three domains of trust. it also is either, Synonymous with, or at the very least, strongly supports the development of psychological safety in teams and even in one-on-one relationships like Boston and direct report, which by the way, is another episode that we're going to,  bring forward.

Charles: But any case, The domain of care is really fundamental for people trusting each other as they work together, particularly in teams. And so let's unpack what are some of the enemies of trust in this domain and how we can avoid those particular enemies.

Ila: I love the first one. Because I think this is so relevant in so many ways right now. So the first one is failing to listen to others. And I have the wise words of Julio Eliah in the back of my head right now saying the biggest gift that we can give any other person is to actually see and hear.

Ila: and how icky and how awful it feels when we're not being seen and heard. And now we see how it actually impacts the domain of care and trust building or trust damaging.

Charles: Yeah. So specifically failing to listen to others. It kinda looks like rarely are never asking them for or listening to their thoughts, ideas cares or concerns. and, I have a client right now who, has gotten some feedback that, he puts a fair amount of distance between himself and his, employees.

Charles: And one of the ways that he's beginning to see that he does that is he listens to them. In a way that isn't really listening. or at least it comes across to them that he's not really listening because he doesn't play it back to them. He doesn't ask questions that relate to the ideas or thoughts or cares, unless it's, you know, very much of here's what we gotta get done.

Charles: 1, 2, 3, and how does this work and that kind of thing. But what he fails to do is really listen deeply. to their, ideas, to their interests, to their concerns. 

Charles: So 

Charles: he doesn't connect with them and they don't connect with him at a deeper human level. Their only connection is task we're getting done right now

Charles: together. 

Ila: Hmm. Very transactional.

Charles: Very transactional. Which, a lot of people would argue that that's all that it's about at work is we're just getting stuff done and we have to be transactional and bringing all this other stuff in is irrelevant. And so why would we even consider doing it? And I think here, what we're saying is.

Charles: when we do it, we build trust in the domain of care. This is one of the ways to, do that is to listen and failing, to do so damages, trust, other people's sense that, I have their interests in mind, or at least our shared interests. If I don't listen to what our shared interests are or what their interests and concerns and cares.

Charles: how can I possibly have them in mind? How could I possibly want good for them around what's important to them going back to the definition of trust, making something you value vulnerable to another person's actions. Well, what is it that I'm making vulnerable? one of the things that we all sort of at some point need to, or want to make vulnerable, I think are what we care. those things that we're concerned about our fears, as well as our joys. And if we don't, listen to people, as they express that really listen, then they're not gonna really get that. We care about. it's pretty obvious. Hey, you don't care about me at all. Do ya?

Ila: Yeah, I'm wondering how the last couple of years have also impacted our ability or our. Intention around behaviors that show and demonstrate care versus things that we may not realize actually for many people feel like or, give them the perception that we don't care. So working with a team this morning, they were talking about how their senior leadership team will come into meetings and are actively on their phones. and not present, not listening.

Charles: Yeah. 

Ila: And, of the individuals on the team just like said, well, why are they even there? It feels like you're just, you know, warming a chair. what's the purpose of being there. And do you know the impact of your behaviors on the rest of us? Because we feel you don't.

Ila: You're not listening. You're not paying attention. You're not present. There was also a group that I was working with recently that it has become an acceptable norm for their team meetings. They're remote for everyone to have their cameras off. And I'm not saying that that's good or bad or right or wrong, but is there a missing conversation about.

Ila: How do we wanna display that we're present and we're listening and we care. And absolutely, there are times I think that all of us need to have our cameras off for whatever reason. So again, I'm not saying you need to make a hard and fast rule, but if we want to listen and be present, what are the behaviors that we want to do more often than not?

Ila: Because it helps give that perception and transparency of.

Charles: absolutely. That's one of the, big things that has come up as all, of us have been. working with each other remotely, through video I mean, it, it's a little disconcerting to be in a meeting with a bunch of people and, half or three quarters of the people have their cameras on and another half or a quarter of them have them off.

Charles: And what are they doing and why? And so it brings up the question why, what are they doing? And immediately that question. the way many of us human beings would approach that question is through the lens of suspicion. What is it's going on there that this person doesn't want to show? so at the very least in talking and one of the teams that I work with actually more than one, but, certainly one recently had that discussion in terms of their team agreements.

Charles: Yes. our norm is to have them. if for some reason you need or want to have it off, you need to tell us all why, not just turn it off and, never say anything about it. so getting back to this idea of listening, of course, we can demonstrate that we're listening in how we respond to the other person.

Charles: So cameras on cameras off isn't so much an issue. We, think it's an issue, because it's one way to, quickly see is that person listening or are they, you know, head down texting or working on their email or whatever. but if my camera's off and you and I are having a conversation and you can tell, you can't fake. listening. You can tell by my responses, by how our conversation moves, if I'm really listening to you or I'm just listening to my own story in my head. I'm not listening, but reloading getting ready for my next shot, 

Charles: to, Convince you that you're wrong and I'm right. which is of course goes right along with, whose interest do we have in mind here?

Charles: yours and mine, or just mine and mine. so I think it's really important, obvious things like sitting and looking at your computer as opposed to being engaged in the convers. We're doing something on your phone, texting IMing. I once had a client, who very boldly because he was in a meeting with his boss and his boss's peers.

Charles: Plus his boss's boss. he was doing a presentation, that he had been asked to do to everybody, all these people. And, he, got up into the front of the room and, he started. and then he stopped because several of the people, including his boss's boss had their computers open, like you were describing pretty common, paying no attention or at least seemingly paying no attention to him.

Charles: And so he did stop and he, you know, just sort of stood there for, he described it as I stood there for probably a minute and a half when one of those people looked up and looked at me and. why did you stop? And he said, because I feel like I'm talking to a wall or actually more likely I'm talking to the back of a bunch of computer screens, and he did say, why did you ask him to come to this meeting? And they had to acknowledge that they were. Not really taking care of business because they'd asked him to come to present some important information. And now they were at least, apparently not paying attention to it. It was a huge risk on his part.

Charles: and, he said that as he was doing this, you know, you'd catch a glimpse of his boss going, oh my God, what are you doing? you self emulating here in the front of the room. But later got feedback from all the other people who did close their laptops, by the way, he made a direct request. I requested you close your laptops and put your phones face down on the table.

Charles: so that we can actually. Take a look at 

Charles: and it, it had an impact.

Ila: I'm tying back to the conversation that I had with this team this morning. And, there are cultural norms that become habitual in an organization or those things that have become habitual. Are they helping move good work forward? maybe it is a cultural norm that people bring their laptops.

Ila: But there's nothing wrong. It is ballsy. It is courageous to say, can I have everyone's attention? I need you for the next five minutes. I don't have to now suddenly make sweeping changes where everybody's present for the entire hour, however long the meeting is, but what behaviors are we rewarding?

Ila: Are they helping us do this good work together? or am I just a placeholder and an agenda where I might as well just turn around and talk to myself in that case. Wow. Like, as I say that out loud, what a horrible thing to do to somebody that we've invited you to this meeting, we want you to present some, interesting data or facts or whatever it is, but we're actually not gonna pay attention to you because we're busy over. 

Ila: It just feels horrible. 

Charles: Well, 

Charles: and what, signals did that send with regard to the interest that those people have in the work of the team or the work of the company?

Ila: Very little. If any? 

Charles: so there's the obvious pieces around listening. are you actually physically present in the room and listening ears open, but there's another term that I think we've talked about before, but I wanna bring back up because I, think this term really captures a lot of what goes into building trust in the domain of care.

Charles: And that's what I call generous. Listen. listening with your full attention and without judgment or much without judgment as you can match. We're all judgment making machines. And we also do have the capacity to set our judgment aside, or at least hold them lightly as we listen to someone else talk so full attention without judgment.

Charles: having preconceived ideas, which is part of judgment, which is like, I already know what going on or what he's going to say. Or, I don't like her point of view or I agree with him or I disagree with him. she's right. She's wrong. Those preconceived ideas that. Prevent us from deeper, more generous listening.

Charles: this particular skill I find is, one of the most important leadership skills. especially as people get higher up in an organization and, are, not so much working off their expertise as their ability to really pull people together and motivate them and, galvanize their, interest and concern towards moving the company forward people have described it as this person's listening to you.

Charles: it seems like you're the only person in the world in that moment that she, or he's listening to you. and that can happen not only with one person, but two or three or five or even an entire team. so this idea of generous listening also is a big part for me. If you, can achieve that capacity or capability of building trust in the domain of. 

Ila: this team that I was with this morning, one of them, that was his call to courage, was to check his assumptions and judgements. And he shared this morning that he's realizing how often he's wrong, that his judgements and assessments about others are wrong or not entirely correct. And so that's been a real shift in change for him to focus on checking them, putting them aside and generous listening rather than being stuck in what I think is.

Charles: Yeah. And that's plagued me in my life. I will tell you that. this idea of, oh, I've got the right idea here and I just need to convince this other person that I'm right. in one way or another, which has led people to, assess me as, arrogant, even though.

Charles: wasn't aware of this and didn't imagine myself as an arrogant person, that was the assessment that they walked away with because, I, I just had that assessment that you're wrong. I'm right. All I have to do is convince you that I'm right. Not useful. Certainly doesn't build trust. Doesn't build trust in the domain of care, let alone any other. I'm wondering, let's move on to the next one of these number two. yeah, I mean, because this is good stuff, but this is another area that a lot of leaders struggle with. the enemy is never making yourself vulner. . And again, we talk about trust as making something you value vulnerable to another person's actions.

Charles: when we wear a mask of invulnerability, it's hard for people to feel like they can trust us. what have you seen that, that can look like?

Ila: this is a very recent conversation as well, and there are two massive organizations that are coming together and you can imagine the impact of change and. there's positional switches and reorgs and people have been let go, and there's just a lot going on. So in speaking with this, particular director, he's trying to keep the positiveness, like we're gonna get through this together, even though he's feeling.

Ila: there's just so much change. There's change fatigue. And we don't know what the end product looks like. We don't know where we're going yet. It's still, working through in order to get to that. But we don't know what that looks like. And he says, yeah, sometimes it's overwhelming and sometimes it's, a lot of uncertainty and I'm just tired.

Ila: And I'm like, have you let your team know that? Have you shared that with your. good. God. No. I'm here to be the champion. Like we're gonna get through this, but that's part of being vulnerable. It's saying it's okay to be uncertain. It's okay. To be disappointed. It's okay to be fearful.

Ila: Let's talk about it rather than pretend it's not.

Charles: Yes. that is actually an important understanding that leaders have to grow into sometimes because in general, our Western particularly north American culture, is all about the tough guy who, has everything handle. so a leader is seen as someone who, he's got all the answers or she's got all the answers, and is, got it all figured out and not gonna back down.

Charles: it generates a certain level of trust in some people. It's kind of an answer to the fear that all of us have that, you know, we don't know where we're going. So if this person stands up and says, I know where we're going, follow me, I have no doubts. I have, the answer and I'm very clear that this is what the answer is and it's gonna work for a lot of people.

Charles: It's easy to let go into that for a. but what it, doesn't do, particularly in, situations where you have to work with each other a lot over a long period of time is build real deep trust in the sense that that person cares, They're not caring about themselves. Let alone caring about me.

Charles: I mean, if they have really genuinely no fear, no concerns, nothing keeps them up at night. They never make mistakes. Or at least if that's their belief about themselves, I don't believe them.

Ila: No.

Charles: because I know they're as human as I am. They may have more experience. They may have a better idea more often than I have a better. but ultimately I really don't trust that. On the other hand, when, I hear another person, like you're saying a leader in particular say, you know, I think this is the right direction. I think we're going in the right way. What do you think. yes, this keeps me up at night. Sometimes I wake up at two o'clock in the morning and start thinking about it and trying to see if there are other ideas and approaches that I haven't thought of that might work better. yeah. I'm, concerned about this. it's sometimes very frightening to me. That gives me the sense that this person's human. They've got the strength and fortitude to face their own fears and to selectively acknowledge them. I mean, I wouldn't expect somebody's gonna just sort of rip open the kimono and go, Hey, let it all hang out.

Charles: that's a quick way to damage trust, destroy it in a way, but if they can be honest about, some of the stuff. It concerns them in their role, and discloses that willing to trust me with their vulnerabilities. Then I feel I can be trusting of them.

Ila: there was a bit of a gut wrenching moment for me as a mom. I'm trying to think Rohan would probably have been in grade five or six and came home from school visibly distraught and, you know, Hey buddy, something happened at school. Are you okay? And he looked at me and said, mom, you wouldn't understand.

Ila: You never have any problems.

Ila: Now I immediately laughed on the inside, not in the outside, but in that moment I realized that my unintentional behavior of figuring out problems and challenges in my head. on my own or outside of where he would hear or see resulted with his interpretation that I had my life completely figured out.

Ila: And it was problem free, which couldn't be further from the truth. But I think, you know, relaying that into a leadership role is that no one of us knows everything about everything . And so there is this beautiful, authentic vulnerability about, do you know what I'm uncertain about this too? Or here's what keeps me up at night or my sweet boy, let me start talking openly about the things that I solve and bump into every single day.

Ila: And that normalizes the human experience 

Charles: Yeah. 

Ila: that this is all normal and it's figure out. And we don't have to be alone in that.

Charles: And I think that's the key for, people sort of that authentic vulnerability, which also for a leader in particular, Includes saying, look, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the right direction is here. And I believe that we can ultimately figure it out.

Charles: So there's the, piece where you. Point to what's actually happening. What's real. What's true. acknowledging it and pointing to hope that there's, a way forward. Just don't know what it is yet. And we will get there. that's a leader that I again, can be trusted. Especially if they demonstrate that a few times that they do with the help of their team, and they allow their team to help them.

Charles: They open up the, door and invite the team in, rather than holding them out by this appearance of I've got it all figured out. I'm I'm invulnerable. extending trust to the team or to the others around you to join in the, work of moving forward.

Ila: Which segues really nicely into our next, topic here is failing to consider others ideas, opinions, interest concerns, and our feeling.

Charles: Yeah. That is a big one for diminishing trust in the domain of care, because like, Hey, does that person care about me? If they never consider anything that am concerned about or interested in, or, whatever. in other words, they make their decisions going forward without any of my input, one of the fundamental aspects of the definition of trust in the domain of care is that you have my.

Charles: Interests in mind, as well as your own when you make decisions and take action. But if you make decisions without ever listening to my cares and concerns or interests or ideas or opinions, well, apparently you don't have them in mind. So, Hey, I'm not gonna trust you very much least in the domain of.

Ila: Yeah.

Charles: so one of the things that, in fact, I remember research on this from years ago, one of the things that, really builds trust and, a sense of, I want to follow this person in a leader is that, the, direct report, the follower believes that the leader is taking their concerns. into consideration is basically the concept they're considering my idea.

Charles: They're considering my concern to them. It's legitimate. and even if they Don. Actually do what I was wanting them to do or thinking they should do because they took it into consideration. Obviously took it into consideration because they spent time on it. They listened to me, they didn't dismiss it.

Charles: They asked me questions about it. when they make a different decision, I'm still much more likely to support that decision than if they. brush over it. Don't really take it into consideration. And that's been shown, in a number of research studies that that really does increase the bond between, leader and those that she or he leads.

Ila: I've got Timothy Clark's, psychological safety in my head about, you know, really rewarding vulnerability. I'm inviting you to disagree with me. I'm inviting you to ask me questions. I'm inviting you to poke holes in things for the sake of our shared care, so we can do this together.

Ila: And so there's a really important piece in there about actually rewarding the vulnerability, 

Charles: Yeah, 

Ila: Charles. I'm so thankful that you asked that question or, wow, that's a tricky, let's put it on the table and. thank you for bringing it forward.

Charles: even something as simple as thank you for your input. I understand you're concerned and, I can see the value of what you're

Charles: saying 

Charles: and I will consider it I make a decision. But the other piece of that is. After I've made the decision and it's counter to what that other person was bringing forward, going back and saying, here's the decision I made.

Charles: Here's why. And I really thought about what you were saying, and there there are a few things here that I incorporated into my decision or maybe nothing, but it really helped me make the decision I made in the

Charles: end. 

Ila: Mm-hmm I wanna dive into the next one,

Ila: failing to clarify team interests.

Ila: I just wanna scream. I just wanna scream. If everything's a priority, nothing is a priority. And when you keep throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks, there's a cost to the people that you're leading, they're constantly trying to pivot, make sense of get a whole bunch of stuff done.

Ila: And really it's not setting them up for success. So, you know, if I bring this back into the domain of care, this shows such lack of care, or you don't realize the impact that this is having on your people. I see this across so many organizations that I'm working with right now, especially with this. Do more, do it faster.

Ila: do it better. Oh. But we're gonna take away all sorts of resources, but I don't really care. You just need to get this shit done.

Charles: Yeah, very transactional and it doesn't really help people. doesn't build trust, as you said, in the domain of care. so. Helping the team have a sense of what is their, a shared sense of what is their commitment? Bob Dunham talks about one of the ways to define a team.

Charles: In fact, I think it is the way that he defines a team is, a team is a group of people with a shared promise. and if the team doesn't know what that shared promise or shared commitment is, it's very hard to move forward because you are just sort of throwing spaghetti on the walls and see what sticks.

Charles: Oh, is that what we're supposed to be doing? Oh, okay. We'll do that. but here's an issue that I think is really important here or a distinction. I talk about building trust in the domain of care, one on one it's, me really listening to, your interests and concerns and having them in mind when I make decisions and take. but in a team context, I can't always have that for every individual on the team. At least not in the beginning. I may, after the team has been working together for a while and I've gotten to know everyone, but initially it's not. But what I can do is, or, participate in declaration of what our shared interests are, what our shared promise or commitment is.

Charles: and that's what binds us all. And as we work together, acknowledging that over and over again, this is what we're doing together. And if I, as a team member feel. everyone else on the team supports that shared interest, that shared commitment. Then I can trust them in this domain of care in a way that I can't, when I don't believe that, that I, think that, Tom over there is all about Tom and his department and what his department gets.

Charles: And, Susan is all about Susan and our team leader is all about how he looks to his boss and, that will very quickly dilute damage destroy my sense of our shared care.

Ila: It's interesting as I'm working on a team coaching certification and working with teams, through my practicum. And that question has stumped quite a number of people about is this a group of people that have a shared care and a shared promise. And the sponsor, potential stakeholder that I'm having these initial conversations with is like, what do you mean? I don't understand. It's been fascinating. And so why are these people working together? If they don't have a shared care or commitment or promise, what are they doing? What are they working on? and how do you know when they get there? How do you know how to support.

Charles: And this is often a challenge for Quote unquote teams where, Ellen is the boss, the vice president or senior vice president of whatever. And Ellen has five or six or eight direct reports. Each of whom has an area of responsibility, ability, things that they're trying to do. Goals. They have concerns and cares that they're trying to take care of.

Charles: and all of them, it's up to Ellen to declare what their shared care is. Their shared concern, their shared commitment, which may not be obvious because really, this person over here is about marketing. This person over here is about. Manufacturing, this person over here is about operations.

Charles: And, so helping them realize what their shared care is, which may be a little bit abstract, but really making it as clear as possible. Otherwise, why am I even in this meeting what's the point of this meeting because each of these different people.

Charles: different stuff that they're trying to take care of, different decisions. They're trying to make. what's my role here, leadership teams at that level that really do work well, actually do that deep listening with each other and share, even though I don't have much of a background in operations, I'm a, engineer.

Charles: It is in fact, something that I can do to listen to you, to listen to what's bothering and ask questions that might help you think about it differently if nothing

Charles: else. 

Ila: Mm.

Charles: So at that level, our shared. Interests are shared. 

Charles: purpose has to do with moving the whole company forward or moving our entire division forward or moving our department forward. and we are a team in that sense. We have a shared promise or commitment, and it's really incumbent on the leader initially.

Charles: Anyway. To articulate that and rally people around that so that they're not just a bunch of people fighting for their own departments.

Ila: Yeah. And we definitely see. We definitely see that. So should we move to the next one?

Ila: There's a couple more here. So trying to side with everyone.

Charles: oh boy. this is a tough one for some people. and in fact, I tell a story about a client I worked with some years ago in the book that I wrote, who kind of had that Mo and he. wanted people to trust him. So he tried to side with him and of course the problem is you know, you'd think he was siding with you.

Charles: And, Tom would think he's siding with Tom and then you two would talk and wait a minute, he's siding with me and you have a different goal and he's siding with you too. Hmm. I dunno if I can trust in. So how do we avoid that enemy? How does someone avoid that?

Ila: word that just pops into my head immediately is transparency.

Charles: Yeah,

Ila: And that there's no possible way you know, this is like, there's a bunch of people pleasing here. Right? I wanna be liked. I wanna make sure everybody's aligned. I don't wanna rock the boat. So I'm gonna say this thing to this person and that thing to that person and that thing to that person.

Ila: But when it all comes out in the wash and people see how all of the different pieces don't fit together or what you've said to one and the same to the other, but they're opposing, like, it just creates a bit of a shit storm really, 

Charles: Yeah. 

Ila: and a big mess 

Charles: oh

Charles: God. 

Charles: Yes. 

Ila: that, of course, it's just like, well, then we're just gonna back.

Ila: because I don't even wanna get involved in that. I'm just so disappointed. So disconnected. I'm gonna go over here and focus on my own stuff, which causes divisiveness, right? I'm just gonna avoid, I'm not gonna engage. I'm not going to, and what's the cost then to the good work that the team or the organization is actually trying to get done and the relationship 

Charles: Yeah. 

Ila: versus. you know, might have something to say that you don't want to hear, or it may be difficult, or it may be, based on a decision that you hoped I would make in favor of you. But, you know, I, think we've kind of said it a couple times today is, I've taken all of your thoughts, concerns, ideas, and here's where I've landed.

Ila: I want you to all hear it from me at the same time. let's continue these conversations together, but this is where we are.

Charles: Yeah. sort of the opposite of that. I've worked with, uh, a few people in situations where they were actually the senior leaders reporting to the CEO or agency director or whatever, and The meeting in the meeting with the team, they would debate, uh, a particular issue or concern leading to a decision.

Charles: there was no discussion about how the decision would be made the leader. Didn't say, I'm gonna make the decision. I'm gonna take all this stuff into consideration and go make a decision that was not, said. And then there was the, as you've talked about it before the meeting, after the meeting or the series of meetings after the meeting, in which various people who had a really high stake in which way, things would go would kind of find a way to meet with the, leader. bend his or her ear. and usually it would end up that the last person in the door. last person to talk to the leader would get what they wanted. So everybody was always kind of jockeying to have that last word in trying to figure out by when does this decision actually have to be made.

Charles: So I can be the last person in, or if I'm not gonna be able to do that, to really make my case. As well as I can, as forcefully as I can, when I do have the opportunity to talk to the leader. and I'm thinking of one situation, which was even worse than that because then once the leader did make the decision, typically people didn't find out until certain things started happening.

Charles: In other words, a leader would make the decision and sort of roll it out, but not to the whole team. It would just be okay. Eli, I decided to do what you recommended. so why don't you go ahead and put it into action. The other people would find out because you were putting something into action.

Charles: That was clearly what you wanted to do and not what they thought was the right, way to. Really big way to damage trust, In fact, this particular team I'm, thinking of was one of the lowest trust teams I think I've ever worked with. It was frightening. 

Ila: I spoke to a leader last week fairly large organization. had put in an update from their remote hybrid work policy. And this particular person works in a smaller town. it's a very unique, environment. It's not, downtown Calgary in an office tower. So it's a very unique environment.

Ila: And for a number of reasons, the executive assistant continued to work. from home period, even though the policy said something very different. So I said, what are you gonna do about that? Well, I'm not gonna do anything about it because I can't risk her resigning. Like she's the lifeblood of this team without her we'd be lost.

Ila: So I'm now going to bend rules to make her happy. And what do you think the impact to the rest of the team? Yeah, 

Charles: so many times that is done so many times in so many ways with the person we can't live without the person who has made themselves seemingly indispensable. 

Charles: And, when I've come across that exploring with the people, is this person really indispensable? is. true that without this, your entire company falls apart, almost always upon a deeper examination.

Charles: The answer is no,

Ila: yeah, they're an incredibly valuable contributor. They do good work. We want them here. And the cost to not holding people accountable equally, or being transparent, equally causes so much damage in the trust and relationships,

Ila: which is the piece that they often forget.

Charles: yeah, so much. And it's generally, it's damaged both in the domain of care and sincerity as well. 

Charles: and even incompetence, what kind of a leader are you? You're not even a competent leader here. If you can't. do something about this? I was maybe a year ago I was talking with someone in a, human resources capacity who was looking for a coach to coach a leader who was just one of those such people.

Charles: We can't live without this person. And he's doing enormous damage to the relationships in the organization know, we're losing people, and so we want someone to coach him. Well, have you talked to him about being coached? Well, no. So, okay. You planning to do that? Yes. Okay. So what are you gonna talk about in that regard?

Charles: And are you willing to, fire this person? hold them accountable. And actually, even to the point of firing them, if they are unwilling to change how they operate and the HR person said, no, we're not, I have no interest in coaching this

Charles: person 

Charles: because there's no backstop

Charles: there. 

Charles: The organization is not gonna support that person, really changing.

Charles: I think we just have one more here, which I think is also really relevant, to the domain of care and trust. and that has to do with when things are changing, either creating or sustaining an information vacuum, how can I trust that you care when you don't give us at the very least as much information as you have. you know, let people know, that as a leader. You may have privileged information or information that other people don't have. we're gonna have a riff. Some people are gonna go, and I know. that's gonna happen. Some of the people in this group, in our department, in our team, some of the people who report to you are going to have to go.

Charles: I know that I can't tell you right now how many, and I can't tell you who I will, as soon as I have that information available, but my commitment. A person in this position as, vice president or whatever is to follow company policy in this respect. So I literally can't tell you, and I will, as soon as I do, this is the best that people can do leaders can do in this situation, I think.

Charles: and for the most part, the least it doesn't damage trust severely. And in many cases it can build it. 

Charles: I've seen it happen that even though, people know, that a R is coming and their job may be on the chopping block, they're willing to continue doing good work for the company in this period of UNC. between the time that everybody knows. And of course, the rumor mill is gonna be super hyperactive, right? So counteracting those rumors, being transparent as possible. All of these things, all of these enemies of trust in the domain of care can be, Avoided by actions that take courage, take leadership, take self trust and at the same time, build trust. 

Charles: thank you all for listening and, Taking this into consideration. Those of you, particularly who have leadership roles, we've found El and I have found that avoiding these particular enemies of trust is really critical for the health and success of any endeavor, any enterprise, any team, any, manager, employee relationship.

Ila: Such a great conversation. Thank.

Charles: Thank you and thank you all for listening.

Charles: If any of you out there listening, have an issue or concern that you would like us to address that has anything to do with trust, particularly trust at work, but other areas of your life as well.

Charles: We'd love to hear from you. That'd be Charles at insight, or.

Ila: See you next time.