Welcome to the episode about building habits, where we discuss the trust-building behaviours that define our relationships and how to make them habits. Our conversation is inspired by a question posed by James Clear, in a recent issue of his newsletter: “Are the results I'm expecting aligned with the habits I’m following each day?”
We often intend to act in ways that build trust, yet our habitual behaviours may not always reflect our intentions. How do we bridge the gap? Join us as we navigate the process of habit change, understanding that replacing old habits requires more than sheer willpower. We discuss the reality of not getting it right the first time and the necessity of practice to build new habits, and offer practical strategies for initiating change.
We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.
Welcome to the episode about building habits, where we discuss the trust-building behaviours that define our relationships and how to make them habits. Our conversation is inspired by a question posed by James Clear, in a recent issue of his newsletter: “Are the results I'm expecting aligned with the habits I’m following each day?”
We often intend to act in ways that build trust, yet our habitual behaviours may not always reflect our intentions. How do we bridge the gap? Join us as we navigate the process of habit change, understanding that replacing old habits requires more than sheer willpower. We discuss the reality of not getting it right the first time and the necessity of practice to build new habits, and offer practical strategies for initiating change.
We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.
Hi, my name is.
Speaker 2:Charles Feldman.
Speaker 1:And my name is Eela Edgar, and we are here for another episode of Trust On Purpose.
Speaker 2:And today, do you want to just start off? Yeah, like start us off on what we're going to talk about today. Yes, I think we've got a really interesting and practical topic.
Speaker 1:Thank you, charles. So this morning one of my favorite fellow coaches, laurie Hillis, posted a quote by James Clear and it really resonated for me this morning, especially with the teams that I'm working with currently, and I see, yeah, I'm going to hold the what I see until later because Charles and I are going to unpack that, but here's the quote and it says are the results I'm expecting aligned with the habits I'm following each day? Can you say that one more time? Are the results that I'm expecting aligned with the habits I'm following each day? So there's really chewing on this as it relates to what are our intentional trust building behaviors and, yeah, so the conversation before the conversation was quite interesting. So, charles, I'm going to pause here and what comes up for you as I share that quote from James Clear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, specifically in relation to trust, we may have intentions to behave in more trustworthy ways, enact certain behaviors that will build trust, and what in some cases needs to happen is we may have a particular behavior or set of behaviors that we habitually go to, particularly one. We're triggered, but maybe not even that, maybe just how we are on a day-to-day basis, and so we're practicing this habitual behavior that is not at all aligned with the trust building that we want to do with our teams, with our employees, with our boss, whatever it is, with our peers. So, yeah, totally, that quote makes sense, and there are a couple of things that come up for me. One is it's hard to replace a habit with nothing. So if I want to change habits, I need to have a different behavior to go to, and we've talked a little bit about that with Amanda Blake in a previous episode. So we have to actually have a habit or a behavior that we go to that will be more in line with the expectations that we're trying to move towards or create, and we have to also be able to recognize when we're falling back into our old behavior and be able to stop ourselves and bring in the new behavior, try this new, something different. So those are the things that come up.
Speaker 2:And then the other piece, of course, is, having done the experience this a few times myself, that it doesn't always work the first time, or even a few times. It may take a while. It may be that you're laughing here, oh, something I thought I should. Anyway, yeah, it may take a few times, and so it's OK to 15, 20 minutes later, an hour later, go home and I just fell back into my old behavior. Ok, well, let's now go back and take a look at that and replay that and see where I might have actually caught it and moved into the different or new behavior and starting to build a new habit. A whole lot there.
Speaker 1:But yeah, those are the things that kind of came to mind when you said that, it's as though I started laughing Because I've been waiting to use this. It's called the shitty first pancake. Oh yeah, the shitty first pancake.
Speaker 2:The shitty first pancake right.
Speaker 1:So all of us who have ever made pancakes whether they're breakfast, lunch or dinner doesn't matter we have no judgment about pancakes for dinner. The first pancake never turns out right. It's shitty. The pan isn't hot enough, we had too much batter, too little batter, but we flipped it and half of it landed on the stove top and it's the shitty first pancake. And so there's also permission here, I think, to just. This is an intention, this is something that I want, it's important to me, and here's why. And knowing that we're not going to get outright every single time and sometimes it takes two, three, 10, 40 pancakes until we figure out oh, here's the magic of how much the temperature, whatever the recipe is. So full permission to play with your pancakes, it's OK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And besides that, you know the ones that didn't work out. Well, you can still put a lot of syrup on them and they're okay. They're palatable and they're edible.
Speaker 1:They might actually be even better, because I like them crunchier than puffy and yeah, anyway, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1:So I think one of the interesting things, as we were talking in the conversation before the conversation and I really love how James Clear takes this into things that are really bite-sizable. So you know, if you want to wake up earlier, well, you start by, you know, setting your alarm clock five minutes earlier. If you want to eat healthier, well, that's two bites of vegetables before you eat your dinner. If you want to become more mindful, maybe that's meditating or pausing for 60 seconds. These are bite-sizable things that we can do versus. You know, I have this big grandiose that I'm going to suddenly become this type of person with these types of behaviors. And guess what Life gets in the way? I get busy, I'm like, ah, whatever, I'll do that tomorrow, and I lose the ability to get on the mountain practice. I take myself out of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so, as we think about that in terms of practicing behaviors that build trust and let's just make something up here that we've both seen in our coaching careers somewhere the leader, who team leader, who wants to invite his team members to speak, you know, speak more instead of being, you know, just talking the entire time, taking over the entire meeting and it being the leaders meeting and not and very little input from the team. So let's say that that team leader says okay, declares I want to do this differently, and maybe even declares it to the team. And there is a risk there, of course, because that first pancake, or three or four pancakes, is not going to be quite in line with the expectation, right? So there's a risk that there could be some trust lost because, hey, this guy said this, but that he's not behaving his way at all, or this woman.
Speaker 2:So it helps to have some support, it helps to say to the team ahead of time hey, I recognize this going on and I think we would be better served doing something different. And I recognize whatever it is. And so here's what I want to practice in order to be able to enable a different way of all of us being together Rather than just blah, blah, blah on my own. I want to leave space for you all. And then there's that moment when it's time to practice, and there's, you know. So what do you say? And there's this silence in the room because everybody's used to the boss just taking it over, Even when the boss asks what do you think? There wasn't sincerity there, there was just yeah in the past. So now there is sincerity, but it looks the same, Sounds as things. Nobody's going to venture into that right away.
Speaker 1:So here's where habit stacking might come into play. So this is I'm being transparent as a leader. This is something that is important to me. This is a behavior I want to change. So when I ask a question, I will pause for count of five. And I don't know if you just saw this, I just ordered this from Amazon. I have a bag of 50 tiny rubber ducks that there's a group of leaders coming to do a leader as coach with me, and each of them will get a doc as a reminder to shut the duck up. So we can habit stack, we can have a visual reminder, we can write something on a sticky that this is a practice that's important to me.
Speaker 1:Here's why I'm changing my behavior. When I ask a question, to create more space, I'm going to pause and count to five in my head, or I'm going to look at my duck as a reminder to keep my mouth shut and listen, because this is something that's important. Now, the power and we talked a little bit about this with Amanda too the power of the feedback loop and learning and sharing our change of behaviors in our community is that our leader, our team, can say I saw that you paused for five seconds. Or I see your duck is a reminder on the table. I want to acknowledge that you're doing and practicing what you said you're going to do. Or maybe there's a like, as I'm like chopping my hand with my neck right. Maybe there's a visual sign like, okay, you didn't give us five seconds, and this is part of the humanness of learning together and being vulnerable and bold and sharing what we're working on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that, I think, right there builds trust in a huge way. Acknowledging this is what I want to work on and this is why I want to work on this. I think we'll get better results as a team. If I talk less, you talk more, and so I'm inviting you to do that, and, in fact, it may be that I may need to be silent for considerably longer than five seconds before one of you speaks up. So, in effect, really, we're not changing just my behavior, we're changing. I'm inviting you into changing the behavior of this entire team. Yeah, and I recognize that the behavior that we've been stuck in results from my habit of talking and just talking over, not really asking for input, not really. And when you do ask for input, kind of going in and micromanaging you. I recognize that's another one of my behaviors that I want to stop. So let's try this.
Speaker 1:The plus also that I think makes this even more powerful is that we choose to practice this not just at work, but how can I engage and practice this in all aspects of my life? So, at the family dinner table, and I just pause there on purpose, right, can I ask a question, and then can I hold for five. Wherever I'm in a shopper's drive mart talking to somebody in the line, can I ask a question or hold space before, and so we look for these opportunities to test drive because the repetition and the practice is important and we don't want to wait for the perfect moment to go. Oh, here's where I can try it on. This is so great. Rather, where are the tiny little places where we continue to practice and then notice what's happening or shifting, because I'm more committed to my practice.
Speaker 2:Yes, and also not trying it out in reasonably low risk situations if possible. So one of the things again you and I both have encountered before is working with clients who just by default, say yes to any request they get. In fact, they volunteer, they offer, even before the request comes. They offer to do things and there are various reasons why they do this and at some point, as a client, they've recognized along the way that, okay, yeah, this is not something that's serving me and it's not serving my team, my peers, my boss, whoever you know that I'm because I'm actually failing to get things done. My office is falling off the table and not being attended to, and this is not how I want to be. I want to be trustworthy in the domain of reliability, which is going to I get it. It's going to require me to say, at the very least, renegotiate or make counter offers to requests that I can't fulfill or don't believe I can fulfill, sometimes even say no. So that's great Good.
Speaker 2:So now you have a new behavior, and maybe the new behavior is simply to say I need to, I'll get back to you, I need to check on something. I need to find out if I have the resources and time to do this, but taking that pause in some way and saying, okay, what? How do I really need to respond to this? That is in service to me, being highly reliable and delivering everything that I promise to deliver, without failing to deliver at home, because I'm delivering my what I need to as a wife, or as a husband, or as a father, or as a mother, because I'm working so much, and so that that pause?
Speaker 2:Okay, stop. What do I need to? You know, take a breath. Stop. Take a breath and don't try this when the CEO of your company asks you to do something. Try it when one of your peers asks you to do something and when the stakes are really so, until you can build up the not just the mental and even emotional aspects of being able to say no or being able to make a counter offer, but the body that can do it, the body that can actually form the words no and have them come out your mouth.
Speaker 1:Have you been peeking inside of my head?
Speaker 2:That's what.
Speaker 1:I think I've shared before. That's probably the domain that I bump into the most is reliability, because I overextend myself or underestimate how long it takes things to get done. So that's something I am very aware of, and I don't know if you noticed, but while you were talking about this, I changed my posture.
Speaker 2:Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:I sat up my shoulders lowered, shoulder blades back into my back pockets, my head lifted a little bit and my narrative inside was what does it feel like to be a reliable person? What does it feel like to be trusted in the domain of reliability? And what does that body look like and again, we touched on this a little bit last week with Amanda, but I think this is where the power of the practice, and not just the physical moments or the physical words or the pause that we bring. But at the dinner table, when I pause before jumping in and filling space and time, what does it feel like to be a person that creates space for others? Or, in my reflections, what does it feel like for me to not overcommit? It feels like someone who follows through on their commitments.
Speaker 2:Yeah and listen. What that brings to mind for me is there are times when I have and fairly recent times I can think of where I have said yes to doing something and I know I will have it. It's not based on time or resources, it's simply based on the will to do it. I've said yes, knowing or having the sense that I really don't have the will to do whatever. That is and that's a struggle for me. So, recognizing again, recognizing that feeling in my body, this is a place where maybe I should think about do I really want to say yes here or do I really want to make this offer and then take a pause and feel into that? The answer is no, okay, I'm not going to say yes, but again taking that pause, which is the replacement behavior to just saying yes.
Speaker 1:Right, I think this is so, so fascinating that we have these lofty and aspirational expectations, and I think that's lovely, that that's what we want. Right, I want to be this or I want to do that. And if I, you know, if I'm dead honest about some of the things that I aspire to, and then I look at my behaviors and my habits, I see that there's a big gap, and this is an opportunity I'm totally not beating myself up over these things rather reconsidering. Are they still important to me and, if so, what are the small habits that I want to embody in practice that get me closer to those dreams and aspirations than further away?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in a sense it starts with intention. I want to do something different here. I want to show up more trustworthy with my team as a leader, not just somebody who talks at them, but actually leading an invitational way, my team opening up space for all of them to be part of conversation. Or I want to be more reliable. I want to be trustworthy in the domain of reliability, whatever it is, but have that attention. So that's the starting point. But, as you say, if my next move is to say, every time a request is made for me, I'm going to say no, I'm going to practice saying no. That's not realistic.
Speaker 1:It's not realistic.
Speaker 2:It's going to happen that way, or even every time I'm going to stop and take a breath and think about, or every time that there's a long silence when I ask my team for their thoughts, that I'm going to actually let that silence extend until somebody opens part of a conversation. I'm probably not going to do that especially the first three, or four or 10 times, so I need to take it.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm going to give them until I count to 10 or five or whatever it was. You must count to five pretty slowly, I do, so I think I would need to count to 10.
Speaker 1:I count to five quite slowly, and this has been a practice since the days of being a recruiter and interviewing people, where I intentionally slowed down, and so now a long and comfortable silence is super comfortable for me. It's uncomfortable for the people that I'm working with until I tell them my intention behind it, but it takes. It took years of practice to get there, which I think is another thing where we think, oh well, I'm going to do this half a dozen times or I'm going to focus on this for a couple weeks and then check I've got it. But sometimes it takes much longer, and to give ourselves permission for the duration and not the immediate gratification of like, oh my God, I've totally rocked this, I've got it already. Do you Maybe? Maybe you do, maybe you do, maybe you do. Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 2:It's possible. And yeah, and check that Over time. Let's see what the evidence shows you.
Speaker 1:And this is a very recent conversation with a client they work in such a fast-paced environment. It is go, go, go, go, go go because of the nature of their business. And so she has trouble finding places to think or pause or exhale, because she's running from one thing to the next all day. And so, while in the moment we were being kind of silly, it actually then made sense is what if you had five extra breaths when you go to the washroom? You're going to the washroom anyway, and if you give yourself five or 10 extra deep breaths, and that's a place to start building practice of pause and space. And again, we were literally peeing ourselves, laughing when we were coming up with this idea. But she's like but it's possible, that's actually a non-centric, crazy idea, and if that's the one place that it gives me some pause, I'm willing to try it on.
Speaker 2:So it sounds like it's important to practice that before peeing rather than waiting.
Speaker 1:Maybe I mean sorry after peeing After yes, Because I'm thinking yes, yes, yeah, that was backwards.
Speaker 2:Yeah, practicing the breaths after using the bathroom.
Speaker 1:And so I think the invitation is we can get really creative with ways on how we can try on new behaviors and what we're replacing them with. So if it's important for us to learn to say no, I don't know maybe when you're driving to work, say no out loud, see what it feels like in your body and your voice, hear it. What does it feel like to say no yeah.
Speaker 2:And would it bring up a recent situation where you said yes, or you probably should have made a counter offer or, at the very least, said, hey, I need to check some other things out before I come back and tell you anything of, and practice that and see what it might have felt like to do something different? Yeah, and I think we've kind of touched on it. But I think the other thing to do is having that accountability, asking someone that you do trust to support you, saying I'm trying to change my behavior around this. How about I do something different? And I would really like you to let me know how you see it, how what's going on for you as you watch me. And it could be just one person on the team. You don't have to ask the whole team to do this. It could be one trusted team member. It could be one of your colleagues, your boss.
Speaker 2:If you're trying to do something, that just is about you and other folks individually, so it's intention. And then what is it that you're going to pay attention to? Attention, how are you going to do that? And even just I was we were kind of joking about taking your five breaths after you used the bathroom out there than before. But it is also part of that is paying attention to what's going to be most supportive for you to do that. What's the context that will really support you doing what you're doing or wanting to do? So you have a replacement behavior. What am I really going to do here, instead of the old behavior? Because otherwise we have nothing to go to. We'll just default back to the old behavior.
Speaker 1:Because it's comfortable and easy and it's habitual for us.
Speaker 2:And then there's the practice a thousand times before it really gets in.
Speaker 1:The muscle, which knowledge is only a rumor until it lives in your muscle.
Speaker 2:Yep, right or understanding is the understanding. One of my friends, fellow coaches, would say understanding. We can do that very well. Understanding is the booby prize. What you're really looking for is change.
Speaker 1:Oh, say that again. Change in behavior.
Speaker 2:Hang on, say that again, understanding is the booby prize. What we're really looking for is a change in behavior. I can understand it intellectually, but until I have it in the muscle, until I have a new behavior that's readily accessible, that's when we've really come through.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so using that tomorrow with the group I start with. That is excellent. Thank you for sharing that. I want to add one tiny little other comment and sharing is bringing us back to we're all human and we're all figuring out stuff and we all have practices and we all have behaviors that we can tweak and edit. And that's the invitation of leaning into life. And none of us have it all figured out all the time and that's never, ever, an expectation or a standard. Rather, can we be aware and observe and be curious about how are my behaviors giving me leaning me into the life that I really want? That matters to me, with the people that I really care about. And are there some tiny tweaks for us all to make? Hell, yes, okay, great, let's do that together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Thank you. That's a lovely. I think there's a lot of way to end this conversation.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, charles. I, through this conversation, have some tweaks and intentional replacement behaviors that I'm going to work on that I will share with you the next time we chat.
Speaker 2:Me too. Thank you, and you can kind of check in on, if you feel free to check in on this, if you have done anything about this. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you too, Charles. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Okay.