Distrust Differently with Joseph Myers

We sit down with Joseph Myers, trust specialist, renowned speaker, consultant, and author, to discuss our shared mission of leading a movement of more trust. Joseph helps people imagine, reframe, and refocus to foster transparency, engagement, and loyalty. He challenges the notion that trust is an either-or situation, instead exploring the complex interplay between trust and distrust.

We delve into the neuroscience of trust and distrust, examining where each occurs in the brain. Joseph explains that while distrust is natural and important for our safety, it needs to be used differently than we most often do. By learning to harness distrust as a guide, we can come to trust more safely and more often.

We discuss how, even when distrust exists, people and teams can still collaborate effectively if they manage their distrust differently. He emphasizes that trust will inevitably be broken or damaged and that it’s crucial to humanize these experiences. Join us as we explore these profound ideas and learn how to build stronger, more resilient relationships.

We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.

Transcript

Charles Feltman: 0:18

Hi, I'm Charles Feltman.

Ila Edgar: 0:26

And my name is Ila Edgar, and, of course, we're already giggling as we are having the conversation before the recording with an incredible guest that we have on today. We're super happy that you're here. His name is Joseph Myers. And a little bit about you before we talk about why you're here or how you got here. So lots of years, 20 plus I don't want to make you sound older than you are, because I you know, we're about the same age Many years of incredible experience in communication, leadership strategy, education and program development.

Ila Edgar: 0:55

Very well known as a trust specialist, renowned speaker, consultant and author of books. The Search to Belonging and Trust Me, which is what grabbed Charles and my attention on his mission to lead a movement of trust, helping people imagine, reframe and refocus their culture and systems to foster transparency, engagement and loyalty, which I just I love this. Joseph and I had a conversation, a coffee chat, a few weeks ago Super, super interesting. We're so happy you're here. Charles, do you want to talk a little bit about where we're going to start with Joseph? Who are we going to dive into today?

Charles Feltman: 1:35

Yeah, but first I want to say one thing. Okay, and it's not just you, I do it all the time, everybody does it. We use the word incredible and I think actually incredible doesn't apply nearly so much as credible. I think Joseph is highly credible and his work is highly credible.

Charles Feltman: 1:51

I like that. So I just want to put that out there. Joseph has a unique approach at least in terms of the people that I know who work in this field of trust Kind of a unique approach. His kind of tagline is distrust differently. So I guess I kind of want to start there with what's up with that. Where does that come from for you, joseph?

Joseph Myers: 2:15

Yeah, and thank you so much for having me on. As you guys know, I'm a fanboy of the podcast, and the two of you. So early on in the mid-80s, one of the things that came to mind and I observed is that people were trusting and distrusting at the exact same time, that their relationship, that we thought or at least I was taught that the more you trust, the less you distrust was being broken by people I was observing, and then the whole idea that I either have to decide that I'm trusting you or I don't trust you, that there's this dichotomy of either or. It seemed to be an and situation, and so one of the things that emerged over time because we didn't have a lot of research back in the mid 80s of brain science, we were just kind of forming what that even sounded like or looked like. But through the 90s and then the 2000s and about seven years ago, as a footnote, neuroscience started making the observation that distrust comes from the amygdala, so it's a fight-flight-freeze response and trust was processed in the prefrontal cortex. It was a decision, it comes from executive thought, and so one of the things then when I kept working on this and observing and then working with teams and individuals is more and more, especially in our culture today.

Joseph Myers: 3:47

More and more I was helping people with distrust more than trust that they were so distrustful that their amygdala was in such hijack and was so juiced up with all the chemicals that an amygdala can respond with. I had to make sure that they got rid or mitigated or began to distrust differently, because I didn't. Distrust is actually a very safe thing. It's a part of our biology. It's the thing that keeps us safe. So it's important to us. It's important that we have it. However, we have to use it its safety mechanisms in a different way. So that's where distrust differently came.

Charles Feltman: 4:30

That makes a lot of sense. And what you just said about how trust and distrust are processed in different parts of our brains and the neurochemicals, if you will, that are generated and that flood our bodies are different and some of them are the same. Some of the same brain structures are used in both, but the net effect is that they're distinct, that they can be happening at the same time, which is fascinating and also important for us to understand. So talk a little bit about if you would talk a little bit about important for us to understand. So talk a little bit about if you would talk a little bit about how, when you work with people, teams or individuals, how does that show up for them, what's the aha for them in kind of recognizing this, and where do they take it?

Joseph Myers: 5:16

Yeah, I think that if you could imagine the body position of a person that we're talking through specifically, distrust to begin with, because that's where all information starts is in the amygdala. We take information into our amygdala first and then it decides what to do with it either to keep us safe from it and shut down the rest of the brain or let it leak through. What I find is that when we talk about that, you can both distrust and trust at the same time. People's shoulders kind of shrink, like there's a relief, there's a exhale where people feel like, oh, now I can feel safe, which they can, meaning I can distrust this person enough.

Joseph Myers: 5:59

You know, it's kind of where the Reagan slash communist saying came from trust but verify, except I would much rather say distrust but verify, so helping people understand that no, this thing that you have is very natural and needs to be in place, called distrust, and so keep that there. One of the analogies, or one of the things that I think helped people through this, charles too, is I say that the amygdala has two personalities. It's either a guard dog or a guide dog. Either you're barking and biting or the amygdala can keep you safe by guiding you through risk, and so it's the way that you use your amygdala that's important, not that you turn it off and on. So if we can move people from guard dog to guide dog and using their amygdala distrust so that they can move toward trust in a very distrustful way, meaning safe way, then they feel relieved.

Ila Edgar: 7:01

Right, this is so fascinating I'm actually in my brain going back a little bit, as I just worked with a team last week. So A, where were we ever taught about trust? And this is a question that I ask every single person, group, team that I work with is how many of you ever had someone sit you down and say, hey, there's this thing called trust and here's how it works? And I would say, in the thousands of people that I've asked that question, I've had maybe a handful. Go, yeah, somebody sat me down and told me what trust was about and how to live it.

Ila Edgar: 7:37

So A, we don't know what it is, we don't know how to navigate it, we don't know that it's important to distrust and trust, that they're now understanding the two different parts of the brain that this is all driving from. How does this help us going forward to have individuals, teams, organizations start to really see this differently? Because I think that's where the three of us are so committed in our work is how are we driving stronger trust? And now, with your language, is how can we distrust in a safe way? So where do you think this is all going?

Joseph Myers: 8:15

Yeah, I love that question. One of the big topics today is to create safe places for vulnerability. Right? You can't create a safe place for vulnerability unless you can distrust in a proper, appropriate way. You have to bring distrust to the table. You can't just leave it out the door and just arrive with just trust. That won't happen. It won't be safe enough because your amygdala is there to keep that whole thing in balance.

Joseph Myers: 8:47

And so I think that when organizations, teams, just relationship-wise, when we realize that I can distrust you in a very appropriate way, and that really is a gift to you so that I can more deeply and responsibly trust you, because then when trust is broken because it will be broken, that's the fact of it is that once you decide you've done all this mental work, you mitigated your amygdala, you've made all these lists to actually start trusting someone, you've done all this work, you've decided to trust. Bam, there it is. I give you the gift of trust. And now what's going to happen? They're going to break that, and so how do I prepare for that?

Joseph Myers: 9:32

Well, it's your distrust, it's making sure that it's still in the room and that you are appropriately letting it guide you and guide this team, so that when I speak up in a way that triggers you to distrust me, you can actually raise your hand and say hey, that really, as you guys know from the talk before the talk here, mine is control. When someone in the room I'm perceiving that they're trying to take control where I feel like I should be in control, I could get triggered really quickly and so to have the ability to say, hey, my amygdala is kind of getting a little bit heated here. I just want to back up and make sure what I'm perceiving is true or not true.

Ila Edgar: 10:16

Which, as you say that and I think I say this a lot, you've probably heard it is can we normalize our human experience, that this is a normal function of who we are and how we operate, and so just name it, disclose it. This is what's happening for me.

Joseph Myers: 10:33

Yes, Every time you say that I love it. It's perfect.

Charles Feltman: 10:36

It's the perfect words to describe how this can help a team and individuals move forward as humans, yeah, so if I can just ask what I'm hearing and I guess how I would think about it is that I have enough, sufficient level of trust in the other person's care, in that domain of care, that I assess that they actually do have my interests in mind, even though right in this moment they're maybe triggering something, that I can kind of set that aside, that trigger, that experience of being triggered long enough to say something, to bring the conversation in or at the very least to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I don't say something, maybe that's not appropriate or relevant right now, but I can at least hold that at bay the amygdala response, the distrust response and continue to engage with the person from a perspective of, okay, I can trust this person for the most part.

Joseph Myers: 11:51

Yeah, I mean, it's like Brene Brown says you've got to accept or you've got to have this attitude that people are doing the best they can, and if you don't, then you're not being generous, you can't care, none of that happens. But you can't also believe that in other people. If we require you to either trust or distrust yeah, if those are my only two choices, then I'm at a deficit and there's no way I can come forward and believe that you're doing your best unless I can both distrust and trust you at the same time.

Ila Edgar: 12:24

Okay, so here's what I'm thinking about. There's a team that I'm currently working with Sorry, there's a number of teams all in this same division, so these people are on two different teams but work very closely together and their level of distrust is skyrocketing. And if we think about some of the things we talked about before, well, now I'm looking for confirmation that you are absolutely untrustworthy. I'm not safe with you. I can't trust you. So that has built up this huge, ginormous. I don't even think what's bigger than armor, like you think of the armor that Michelle Brody talked about, like what's tenfold, that it's so massive, the Great Wall of China. There we go. That would help. Yes, that's good, thank you. Is this something that helps them see things differently, and how? Yeah, Like.

Joseph Myers: 13:17

I had the same situation happen. At the beginning of the year I was working with a team they brought me in because basically these two people on these two teams couldn't sit in the same room together. I mean, it had gotten to that point and it was costing this organization they had figured out about a million dollars a week for them not to cooperate.

Charles Feltman: 13:38

Wow.

Joseph Myers: 13:38

So it was either you work on this and do this now and fix it, or both of you are gone.

Joseph Myers: 13:46

I mean that just you're not worth a million dollars a week, kind of thing. So in working with them, one of the biggest reliefs for them was you mean, I still get to distrust her. Yes, you just can't do it. Like you're doing it now, you're allowing your amygdala to take over and so you have no rational thought in this, because your amygdala shut down your brain and so you are acting literally like a raving, biting, ravaged guard dog. She's shaking your fence and you're just barking and barking and trying to bite all the time. That's not appropriate. There's another way you can distrust her. And then I told her the same thing, both of them. The look on their face was like oh, if I don't have to give up my safety, then now I can look at the situation differently, as a guide dog maneuvering through the risk of being in a relationship with this other person or team, and now I can look for what are the qualities that I need from this person to begin to trust?

Ila Edgar: 14:55

which, then, I think, is where the four domains of trust can also be helpful. So let's start to unpack this a little bit. What do I see? What do I need? Here's what I need from you. What do you need from me? Now, you can't have that conversation if the two guard dogs are still snarling and spitting and biting at each other.

Joseph Myers: 15:17

That's exactly it. And spitting and biting at each other, that's exactly it. And one of the people in this situation went home and tried at home to figure out why they weren't getting along with their children. And it was the same thing. Their kids come home from work with this amygdala hijack. They get into family meal. All of a sudden, those teenagers are triggering it again and all I know to do at this point is to bark and bite.

Charles Feltman: 15:42

So how long? This raises a question for me. How long does it take a person, once they kind of get that that, oh, I could distrust differently, how long does it take them to overcome the habitual distrust behaviors and internal experience of being the guard dog?

Joseph Myers: 16:04

Charles, the neuroscience would teach us that it takes about 45 days to build a new neural pathway right, and so if we can constantly do that and I would say on average it's about 45 days, but I think other people it's such a relief and an aha that their brain has been looking for this for a long time and I've seen them almost overnight be able to do it, like these two people that I talked about before. Literally, their manager called me the next day. I spent one day with them the next day. They were coming up with new ideas, new processes, and laughing about how they were triggering each other as they were talking to each other.

Ila Edgar: 16:52

But it didn't have the same charge and the guard dog didn't come out.

Joseph Myers: 16:58

That's exactly it, and we'd given them language to be able to say that to the other person without it being another way to trigger them Right yeah.

Ila Edgar: 17:09

Yeah.

Joseph Myers: 17:10

Hey, listen, I'm perceiving that you're taking control here, when really this is my bailiwick, this is my side, but I'm more than happy to get your input, and so it just helped them with language and battling back and forth again as guide dogs, going through the risk, because relationships are risky, that's what they're built on. It's not a relationship unless it's a risk, and so we have to have that amygdala active and giving us good information so that we can get to trust and allow ourselves the vulnerability to say well, in the quadrants, you know, with sincerity and care and confidence and reliability. I see those things in you and here's how I see them. They show up in honesty, consistency, loyalty, compassion, those and that automatically starts sparking people to understand how you're seeing them and how you're seeing them in those quadrants.

Ila Edgar: 18:15

This is so fascinating, yeah, this is so fascinating.

Charles Feltman: 18:17

Yeah, what I talk about in the Thin Book of Trust around the neuroscience, if you will, is that essentially, essentially the same thing. We need to be able to calm the distrust network sufficiently so that we can access the trust network and I talk about the two being separate networks in the brain so calm and what I'm hearing you saying is just recognizing that it's okay to have the distrust network functioning alert there allows me to keep it calm within myself. This is fascinating. This is really good. I love it that people can very quickly if they recognize that in some circumstances anyway, very quickly change how they amplify the trust network. Bring it into the conversation, if you will, and amplify it. So, cognitive bias, which we were talking about before in terms of distrust we distrust here and then we start looking for all these other reasons to distrust that person. The same can work with trust, obviously, but we have to get there. We have to get that starting point.

Joseph Myers: 19:34

Yeah, so I'm always looking for words that help communicate this idea in a way, and so, if I can just pick on one word that you used there, charles, and let's unravel it for a second, I wouldn't say that a guard dog is always calm, and so it's one of those things where what is the word? That's why I went with guard dog? Guide dog is because there's behaviors of a guide dog that will violently pull someone back if the risk is too high. They don't bark, they don't bite, they don't attack the other, like a car's coming. They don't attack the car for you, they just pull you back away from it. So it's not that I'm always trying to calm my amygdala down, I just don't want it to react in a way that makes the other person attack me. I don't want to attack that person, so they attack me, so I attack them, so they attack me. Does that make sense?

Charles Feltman: 20:35

Yeah, absolutely. That's the downward spiral of distrust, exactly that. So maybe calm but alert as a description of the distrust network. Calm but alert. It's there, it's checking things out and it's going to be alert anyway. We can't turn it off. It's always going to be doing that. What we can do is recognize that that's part of what we are as a human.

Joseph Myers: 21:03

That's exactly it. I love that.

Ila Edgar: 21:05

Oh, are we human? Yes, yeah. So, sharing a little bit the conversation before the conversation that I had a pretty big breakdown on Saturday morning. A number of events had occurred within this particular context that already had me feeling very distrustful of a very large system, and then the situation that happened Saturday morning was just it was the straw that broke the camel's back, and so I'm also interested from your perspective, joseph, when there is is like there will be big breakdowns like that, and so, from your perspective, how do we use our new awareness to help re-regulate and get us back on maybe not completely calm it definitely took me some time to get there but how can we use this new awareness to support us and help us?

Joseph Myers: 21:58

Well, I think one. You can't do it by yourself, damn. I think that because trust is relational, that to get there you have to have someone else. So one of the things, like I've mentioned, my trigger mainly is control. What I'm trying to keep safe in the world is this whole idea is the world is a better place if I'm in control. I don't proudly say that, but it is what I'm triggered by.

Joseph Myers: 22:24

I've given my wife the permission to, when she sees steam starting to come out my ears, to back off and basically put her hands up like this. And I'm putting my hands up like whoa, stop. She basically is saying I know you're perceiving that I'm trying to control you right now. So she mentions it helps me get back to a place where my prefrontal cortex is starting to evaluate oh right, she's probably not trying to control me here. It feels that way. Why does it feel that way? And we can discuss it now because I've given her the permission. Or if we're in a situation where she can't say anything, she'll reach over in a situation where somebody else is triggering me and like tap my hand, like they're not trying to control you, you're fine, yeah, just like you would. A good dog who wants to bark, you kind of treat it the same way, just pet it, let it know, things are okay. Things are okay, yeah, yeah, but you can't do it by yourself.

Charles Feltman: 23:29

I totally agree about the not being able to do it by oneself, which is really important. I know that I tend to do things, want to try to do things by myself. Sometimes it takes me a while to go. Oh wait, a minute, this is going to work when it's just me trying to do this. So it takes me a while to get there. But I think having the right partners in that process, being sort of careful about who we choose to ask to support us and then being very clear with them about what will support us and what won't yeah, because I used to trigger my wife in a certain way and then how I would try and calm her down triggered her more. So we had to get clear with each other.

Charles Feltman: 24:23

She had to be clear with me about what you're doing now is making things worse, and I had to be able to hear that, which that took us a while to kind of work through that, but I think that's really important is to be able to say this is what triggers me, and then this other thing that you're doing is making it even worse. Being able to have that conversation, picking people to support me that I can have that kind of conversation with, is really, I think, critical in this process. It's not just anybody. So when I coach someone, for example, in an organization, just anybody. So when I coach someone, for example, in an organization, I ask them to find one or two people who they can use as support around the growth and development that they're aiming to achieve, who can give them feedback and support them around this. There again, it's really critical that they choose the right people to play that role.

Charles Feltman: 25:19

Before we go on, though, I do want to mention that you have this wonderful tool that helps teams recognize these places where they tend to get triggered and how they can create their own de-triggering process. It's important to be able to do it with other people. You need that, and also it's helpful to have your own way out. So do you want to talk just a little bit about that tool?

Joseph Myers: 25:47

Sure, and I'm going to marry it with what you were just saying because I think that you're right In that deep sense of us working on ourselves and the self-reflection and all that kind of thing, it's important that you choose people that you're just going to be safe with right. However, the tool that I am working with now gives teams it's like when you guys were talking with Michelle Brody about armoring and there were different levels of armor. There's that first stage of armor where you're just kind of putting a little bit on and then all of a sudden you've got this massive front. Well, the app that I've developed purposefully helps give language to teams. That, hopefully, is helping them not trigger each other to go further on in armory that when you feel or sense someone is just lightly putting on that armor and not really kind of bolstering up, that you can say something that you give your team permission to say hey, just remind me, you're not trying to control me. For instance, helps a team do that for you. At the same time, it's not at the same level of self-discovery or self-review that you would with someone that you're really safe with and you can kind of bark and bite and they can kind of smile through that, but yeah.

Joseph Myers: 27:10

So the app is to give three different tools around the way that trust develops, and that is like a flywheel effect. It's a process. Trust isn't a destination. Trust is a process by which you go through what I call three stages. One is to distrust distrust differently. Two is to decide to trust. And then three is get prepared, because you're going to have to deal with distrust. And so it gives you three different tools one to help you distrust differently. The next one is to help you figure out what you personally need to trust someone more quickly and maybe even deeply. And then three, it gives you a tool to prepare yourself when those times arise when your trust is going to be tested.

Charles Feltman: 28:01

Yeah, yeah, thank you. That's a good description of it because you just led Ila and I through it at a kind of a breakneck speed, so a quick version of it, but we could see that in the process of walking through it how it could be very valuable for teams. The distrust differently part of it is where you start. I think that's where we started this conversation in a way is that's where it starts is distrusting differently, so that I can get to the trusting part.

Charles Feltman: 28:31

I know a lot of the work that I've done with people around trust with individuals and teams has tended to focus on the trust side of the equation and not so much the distrust side of the equation. So what I am getting from this conversation is that it's really useful to at least pay some attention honest, authentic attention to yeah, we need to distrust and how do we distrust. And I think that's one of the things that I got from the quick spin through your app is that, yeah, it gave me a sense as a user of how I distrust and what's important to me, that I'm protecting. That's the real key under that is what am I protecting? What is it when I think about? Trust is making something I value vulnerable to another person's actions. What is it that I value, that I'm making vulnerable, that I would tend to protect when I distrust and that's what all my distrust activity is about is really protecting that.

Joseph Myers: 29:33

Yeah, that is so well said, charles. That's exactly it. I don't know about the two of you, but the more in the season and the climate that our culture is in now, the more distrust seems to be out front, where it seems like maybe in the 90s, early 2000s certainly in the 80s it was this way Distrust was behind the scenes. It wasn't vocal. The barking and biting happened behind closed doors or inside my head or whatever. It just wasn't as if I can say it this way as violent as it is now. And so when I go into teams and help, it's very evident that many of these people whether it's because it's a post-COVID response you know they were locked up and in jail for so long and now they're inmates being put back together at work, or whatever's happening and whatever's causing it distrust seems to be all out front, and so I'm dealing with that more and more. I'd like to know if you feel that, but that's certainly the clients that I'm dealing with for sure.

Ila Edgar: 30:44

Really interesting question and I think where I see a tiny difference is I do a lot of work with not-for-profit and that domain of care really really helps them dial that back, or at least they're willing to talk about it or more aware of it. I would say in my current repertoire of clients, you know, probably the last six months, those that are really missing that quadrant of care don't have a shared care, a purpose, a goal, something that they're committed to. Wow, is it pretty messy ugly and to the point where there's, you know, dead bodies and carnage left down the hallways.

Charles Feltman: 31:25

Yeah, that's actually, I think, really important to point to is shared care does a lot to support calming, keeping the distrust network alert but at the same time, calming it down enough so that we can have the kinds of conversations we need to have to move forward.

Ila Edgar: 31:44

And.

Charles Feltman: 31:45

I think the other part of that, eli, you and I keep saying this and I hear you saying it too, joseph you don't move forward without having an explicit conversation about trust that if it's all underground, then there's no way that we have of actually dealing with it. It just sabotages us from the inside. It's an inside job completely. So bringing it out in a safe way, having that conversation in a way that's safe and I again can see how valuable it is to start with saying, okay, you can distrust, it's okay, we need to talk about this and I know that's a challenging conversation and you may not feel safe, and that's appropriate. It's okay to have that guard dog, alert and watchful and keeping you safe in the conversation.

Charles Feltman: 32:33

So, what do you need? You know that, as you and I have worked with teams starting from the place of. What do you need? You know that, as you and I have worked with teams starting from the place of what do you need to feel safe? What do you need, each of you on this team, before we get anywhere else, go anywhere else? What is it that you need in order to feel safe enough so that you can feel uncomfortable in the conversations that we're going to have, because you will.

Joseph Myers: 32:55

An interesting group that I've been working with lately are attorneys and they came and said hey, how can we work on jury selection, jury trust?

Joseph Myers: 33:05

We need juries to trust us more. And of course, the first thing I said was you need to get them to distrust you differently, right, yeah, because what happens now or before is that they would go into a jury or jury selection and they might recognize that the jury distrust them and they would say something like I need you to trust me on this. That's not going to help. Nope, yeah, you're just giving me to the amygdala, kind of thing. So I encourage them to say it's okay that you distrust me, just if, for a little while, if you could put off barking and biting, that would be wonderful and I'd like to help guide you through this risk. And they don't mention anything about trust as they start, but they build trust with them through the conversation of saying it's okay that you distrust me, I distrust me too, kind of thing. I think it just unarmed or it starts to take away that armor a little piece at a time.

Ila Edgar: 34:08

Yeah, I love it. I love it. I feel like we might need a part two to this conversation. A, because I want to percolate on the app that you walked us through. My best questions will come in two days when I'm walking the dog. Might need a part two to this conversation. A, because I want to percolate on the app that you walked us through. My best questions will come in two days when I'm walking the dog. But B, I think that there's also so much richness and juiciness in staying with this. How do we distrust differently? And even as we started the conversation, I could feel my system exhale that oh, there's this permission. It's okay, that's normal to distrust and trust. So how do we navigate this more, charles?

Charles Feltman: 34:48

where are you sitting with all of this? Yeah, I totally get what you're saying.

Charles Feltman: 34:49

I would love to have another conversation or a part two conversation, because that's really important and I'm really getting the importance of it even as we talk, the value of it. So, yes, for now, perhaps we close this particular episode by thanking you, joseph, for joining us this time around and sharing this really valuable insight and perspective that, starting with distrust and figuring out how to do that differently, allows us, in situations where there is good reason perhaps to distrust, or from a perspective of I've got to protect myself, which is often the case in the clients that we work with, starting with okay, that's okay, it's important. You definitely should distrust yourself or just protect yourself and be a little bit distrustful here and let's do it differently.

Joseph Myers: 35:48

And just like you kind of said there, Charles, it'd be interesting to talk through how this works with self-distrust and self-trust.

Charles Feltman: 35:55

Yeah.

Joseph Myers: 35:56

We can definitely trigger our own amygdalas.

Ila Edgar: 35:59

Yeah, we can. Yes, ooh, Okay, so we've got a couple of juicy areas that we want to dive into with you again. In the meantime, would you like to share anything about how people can find you or how you would like them to interact with you?

Joseph Myers: 36:15

Sure. So you can find me at a couple of places josephrmyerscom. There's all about me there in my books and you can find the Trust Me book there. And then there's information about the tool, the app we've been talking about at trustxdistrust, which I pronounce trustbydistrustcom, so trustx, and then if you just put Joseph in front of either one of those, at either one of those domains, you'll get an email to me. Or you know I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and friends with the two of you on LinkedIn, so people could search that.

Charles Feltman: 36:57

Lovely. They can find you through us or they can find you directly. Either way it works. That's good.

Ila Edgar: 37:03

I want to say thank you so much for joining us today. I loved this conversation. It's a full body. Yes, for me to have you back and continue discussions and diving into juicy topics. So thank you from my heart, charles. Anything you want to say in closing?

Charles Feltman: 37:18

I think you said it well, thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Ila Edgar: 37:22

Delighted to. On behalf of both Charles and myself, we want to say a big thank you to our producer and sound editor, Chad Penner. Hilary Rideout of Inside Out Branding, Chad Penner, Hilary Rideout of Inside Out Branding, who does our promotion, our amazing graphics and marketing for us, and our theme music was composed by Jonas Smith. If you have any questions or comments for us about the podcast, if you have a trust-related situation that you'd like us to take up in one of our episodes, we'd love to hear from you at trust at trustonpurposeorg.

Charles Feltman: 37:58

And we'd also like to thank you, our listeners. Take care and keep building trust on purpose Until next time.

Ila Edgar: 38:07

Until next time.