Trust on Purpose

I trust them, so you should too

• Charles Feltman and Ila Edgar

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What happens when someone you trust asks you to trust someone else based solely on their own trust of that person? “I trust them, so you should too.” In this episode, we dive deep into the delicate and often complicated concept of trust transfer. This dynamic plays out in workplaces everywhere and can affect relationships, team cohesion, and even organizational success.

 We explore the risks and nuances tied to referrals that are based on third-party trust, how different individuals assess trustworthiness, and why being told to trust someone based on another’s recommendation doesn’t always sit right. We unpack how trust transfer commonly occurs during significant change, where organizations expect people to accept and even champion changes, despite not feeling fully included in the process. Leaders often expect their teams to "trust the process", but that can create a sense of obligation and even alienation. And resistance often comes when change is imposed, but it can be mitigated with genuine involvement and care for those most impacted. Lastly, we discuss the fine line between cynicism and skepticism and how each can influence the culture of a team or organization and the relationships within them.

Whether you’re a leader, team member, or navigating a significant change, this episode offers valuable insights into the unseen dynamics of trust transfer.

We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.

Charles:

Hello, I'm Charles Feldman.

Ila:

And my name is Ila Edgar, and we're here for another episode of Trust on Purpose. Today we have a pretty juicy topic and, of course, Charles and I had the conversation before the conversation, which wouldn't it be so cool someday to actually let our listeners listen to the conversation before the conversation.

Ila:

Yeah, as long as we could edit it yeah, as long as we could edit it well.

Ila:

I always find so much value and insight and talking through what we want to talk about.

Ila:

So today, what we're diving into is actually a situation that's pretty near and dear to me, as I'm currently navigating a potential transition. The focus that Charles and I would like to pay attention to today is when there is an existing relationship and a level of trust, and that relationship requests, offers demand isn't quite the right word implies wants us to also trust a third party that we don't necessarily have a relationship with, and so the words that keep spinning through my brain is this trust transfer that, if I trust Charles, and Charles makes me or asks me to trust Bob well, of course I should trust Bob, but for me and again, this is where the spice and the juice may show up in our conversation today is that I don't, and I have valid data points on why I don't, and I'm quite juicy about that. In our conversation and here's what I'd love for you to chime in, charles, from your perspective like we see this happen quite a bit. So, as I did that initial setup, what's coming to mind for you?

Charles:

Yeah, this is something that actually, as you were talking about your situation earlier before we turned on the recording, it was very personal to you and I was listening and said this happens all the time, this kind of trust transfer or request for trust transfer. I trust this person, I think you should trust this person, you should enter into this relationship for this third party, this other person or this other organization or whatever it is. It does happen a lot, so you are able to sort of breathe easier a little bit. It isn't just personal to you in this moment and it can bring up all kinds of issues and concerns If, like you said, I'm asking you to trust a third party but you have no data other than my professed trust in this third party, then there's a test of our relationship and your trust in me.

Charles:

So, on the one hand, you're going to place your trust in this third party based on your trust in me, and that may or may not work out for you. So there's all kinds of risks here, right? Yes, there's the risk on your part that it won't work for you, this third party won't be trustworthy to you. A risk for me that the third party will fail you and so therefore you might trust me less. And there's a risk for me that you might come back and say, no, I'm not going to trust this third party based on my trust of you, which then brings me to question how well you trust me.

Ila:

Right, and then there's another one. So, although you're inviting me to extend trust to this other party, what about how I show up with that other party and the potential blowback on you because of how I navigate that relationship or don't navigate that relationship?

Charles:

Yes, that's a third. So trust is choosing to make what you value vulnerable, choosing to risk making what you value vulnerable to another person's actions. There's all kinds of risk in this kind of triangular, but we do it all the time. As I was saying, this is how I, as a coach, often rely on others that I have coached or am coaching to refer me to other people that they know that they think would benefit. And you do the same. That's how all kinds of direct referrals happen and that's great. And there's all this risk in that Right.

Charles:

So that's part of it, this triangle of me, the person that trusts me and that I want and think would be valuable for them to trust this other person. But in business context or in an organizational context, there's another angle to this that comes up, which is that I build trust, let's say with you. Again, we'll put you and I as kind of a primary part of this. I want to build trust with you, I show up as trustworthy in the ways that I think you will respond to positively, but there's a third party who doesn't trust me, for whatever reason, and comes to you and says you shouldn't trust Charles. He's not trustworthy and, interestingly, sometimes at least it's that third party who comes with a trust assessment about me and you may actually listen to them and give them more credence than you would give me. Have you seen that happen before?

Ila:

I'm trying to think of an example. If you could hear my brain wheels turning, you would know that I'm trying really hard to think of an example. Right now I can't think of one. Can you give an example? A brief example? I think that would be helpful.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah, I was talking with someone. I wasn't coaching this person. It was just a person I knew in a business setting who was talking to me about this very thing where they had a colleague whom they wanted to trust them and whom they wanted to trust. You know, they wanted to build this mutual relationship but a third party was telling the colleague don't trust that person. You know that person's not a maybe the word wasn't trust in this case but just you want to be careful about that person.

Charles:

The individual I was talking to in this conversation was saying I have done nothing, as far as I know, to prejudice this person. You know that I want to have a relationship with against me. I haven't showed up in a way that this person should doubt me. It's a new relationship so of course they should extend trust to me wisely, to check it out and see how I am. But it seems like they're listening to this other person and taking what they have to say as stronger input, and I don't know why, because I don't think they have a relationship really with this other person. So why should they listen to that other person? So this was a conversation I had, I guess maybe now it's probably been seven or eight months ago, but I've heard of that conversation before with clients.

Ila:

As you shared that example, and we did talk about this a little bit before we started recording. This is also dependent on how we assess or evaluate, or our propensity to trust, and so my view and how I assess my trustworthiness with you is different than how you would assess trustworthiness. Well, actually, I paused that a little bit because I think, because of the relationship we have, we use the same language, the same model, that we have a commonality and a shared understanding about that, but that isn't the case with most people, right? What you and I bump into this all the time is that trust is this huge, elusive topic that we all know is vastly important and so critical in relationships, but we don't know how to build it or maintain it or repair it or talk about it yeah yeah, and be proactive about it.

Ila:

so in a situation like this, it becomes super muddy and complicated because there's so many individual assessments, propensities to trust, relationship with trust. I would go. I wrote here in my little scratch pad care, what's driving our behavior, what do you really care about? So as I go back to this juicy, spicy situation that I'm currently navigating that care piece that's why I wrote it on this piece of paper. For me, that care piece is missing. Or I'm making up that that organization and that leader has a care in mind, but that person has lost care about the people that are directly affected and asking for a trust transference.

Charles:

or because I also trust this organization and I'm saying these words very specifically, thou shalt also trust that organization, because that's what it feels like is that there is a lack of care towards you and some people on the part of the person who is saying you need to trust this other organization, or I trust them, so you should, yeah, and you have you don't have a lot of data to make that decision, to make that choice yourself?

Charles:

Yeah, and it sounds to me like the person who's asking you to trust is not supplying you with a lot of data. Nope, they're just saying, hey, I'm trustworthy, of course, of course, and I trust this other organization, so should you? Yeah.

Ila:

Yeah, and I really want to say this from a place of generosity and curiosity is again, I think, as we started this.

Ila:

What I'm navigating is not some anomaly.

Ila:

This happens all the time in organizations to right now, and leaders that are navigating things or asking people or your entire division or your entire organization to have this similar trust transference is in the last I don't know three, four weeks that this has been on my radar. I can't tell you the number of people that have come to me to say I'm really struggling. This doesn't feel right, I don't know what to do, and the time emotionally, mentally, physically that people are taking to try and figure out how do I navigate this it breaks my heart really. They're all really good people. They want to show up and do really good work. I trust that this situation has really caused them to second guess, to spend time, energy and effort spinning in wonder and doubt and not feeling cared for or valued. So again, leaders that are listening to this or organizations that are listening to this, just know that that's an unintended outcome and that, by how you design or how you're more proactive about trust, can help mitigate or reduce this kind of I don't know the word an unintended consequence.

Charles:

And so, thinking about it, you've identified for yourself care, so trust in the domain of care, and you're assessing that much trust isn't being demonstrated in the domain of care. Let me just ask you, as long as we're working with this, what about the domain of sincerity? Do you trust that the person is acting with integrity and being honest?

Ila:

That's not a yes, no question. So I feel like, to the extent that they're able to be honest, I think they are. Is it enough for me? No, I think they are. Is it enough for me? No. And I think the hook, or the plus also to the sincerity really comes back to the care. So if there was a verbalization and acknowledgement about appreciate the value you've brought, appreciate what you've done in the last, however many years we know this is hard how do we support you? How do we navigate this together? So for me, the care and sincerity are really tightly linked. The other piece that bumps into this and I don't know if you're going to ask me this, but I'm going to answer it In the domain of reliability, I would say the transparency and the consistency is not there. I don't understand the process. I don't understand a lot, and so how can you ask me to trust something I don't understand? And we talked about this in another episode, right, about how just trust the process. Yes, both of it, both of it.

Charles:

Right, right. And I guess I'm curious was there a commitment to any kind of commitments made, any kind of promises made that have not been fulfilled? And I would include in that not just spoken promises but implied promises also?

Ila:

implied promises also. Yeah, the way that things have been are no longer, and that wasn't ever on the radar, and so that's no pun intended. That's a big change.

Charles:

Nicely said.

Ila:

I know yeah.

Charles:

And so there was at least an implied commitment or promise, or series of commitments and promises, that what things would stay the same or, as things changed, there would be. It wouldn't be just a wholesale change, it would be whatever was. It sounds like there were commitments verbalized or implied that have not been fulfilled, have not been kept, and might as well dive into the last one competence, competence.

Ila:

So I knew this is where you're going to go next, and I also want to extend grace and compassion in this particular situation. These two organizations have never navigated something like this before, so they're definitely in no man's land. How do you design? How do you and I've got Amy Edmondson's voice in my head a little bit around you know, designing for failure like declaring we're in a space that we've never been in before. I don't know how to get through this. So, giving again the grace and compassion that both of them are in no man's land and we're figuring out they're figuring it out as they go along, but I think the thing that would make the difference is then declaring that.

Charles:

I was just going to ask have they declared that? And it sounds like from what you're saying is no, there's been no declaration that, hey, we're trying something that we've never done before. It's all new to us and we're going to make some mistakes, and our request to you is that you hold on. We're going to try whatever it is, you know, whatever their commitment is in that regard. For those of you who are subject to this change and you know what I'm thinking. Now back to, I don't know how many times I've worked with groups within an organization who were in charge of a change initiative, for the organization the same thing.

Charles:

They don't take care of the people who are subject to the change. Their assumption is that everybody will be happy with the change. We just have to get through some rough stuff here. That's okay, because the end result is going to be so good. Everybody's going to be so excited about this or so happy about this. But the truth is that people aren't going to be happy because they're going to be so excited about this or so happy about this. But the truth is that people aren't going to be happy because they're going to be carrying this distrust and issues and concerns and problems forward into utopian new world. Right, right. What they don't do is design the change process with those people in mind who are subject to it, and that's where trust gets broken.

Ila:

Yeah, I definitely talk about this a lot in the leadership work that I do is that there's a difference between when we choose change and when change is chosen for us. I think change just gets clumped into this big bucket and muster through. Look for the positive. You know we're going to get through this. It'll be tough, but you know it's all for the best.

Ila:

If I've had space and time to choose the change, I've turned it upside down inside out. I've weighed the pros and cons, I've been able to move myself along in the process. But when change has been chosen for us, we're often like the ship has already sailed, the train's out of the station, there's no going back, and the decision makers are so much further along and the announcement gets made, or the decision is declared or the merger happens, but we lose sight of what the actual people that are being affected by the change need in order not to catch up but to pause and go. Oh, okay, help me understand, and I think that's the secret sauce or the point where designing the intentional change is really, really important. It's the make or break.

Charles:

Yeah, yeah, because ultimately that change is going to be made, and so the people who are subject to it won't necessarily have a choice other than they can choose to accept it and go with it, or they can choose to resist it. And if it's done without care and consideration, they're going to resist, and I would too. I mean, it's just part of human nature.

Ila:

Oh, I'm so glad you said that, because the other thing that I think happens when people resist the change they are assessed to be not team players like rah rah drink the kool-aid where actually that resistance might be because they're still reckoning, they're trying to figure out, they're in the decision making process, they're trying to make sense of, but immediately, or almost immediately, other people in the organization is like oh yeah, that, yeah, that Charles, he's not on board, he's a stick in the mud, he's never going to change, and that's an unfair and an unkind assessment because we don't know that. That's true.

Charles:

Yeah, and therein lies that problem that I was talking about at the beginning, where somebody else, a third party, is coming in and saying don't pay attention to him, don't trust him in, and saying don't pay attention to him, don't trust him. And part of it is also that those people who are resisting actually may have something valuable to contribute, but if they're labeled as troublemakers, foot draggers, luddites, resistors, no one's going to listen to what they could contribute. That would be a value to the overall, the outcome of the process. Yes.

Ila:

I love that.

Charles:

Yeah, often the people who are kind of staging the change is an outside consulting firm.

Ila:

Right Can be yeah.

Charles:

So it's even more complicated there. If things are not going well, who do you even go to to talk to about the issues and concerns? But yes, I think going back to what we were just saying, involving people who are subject to the change in an honest way not simply just okay, give them a survey and let them answer some questions, but how would you see this working out and what would work for you and what do you see as potential problems? And really engage them in having input in the process is one of the ways to build trust rather than damage it.

Ila:

The other thing that I'm curious about, when you mentioned, these lovely humans that may be resisting might have some value to add If we don't pause and get curious about what they may be resisting about. That's sad, but also the other place I went was how does my behavior change towards you if I believe you to be a resistor?

Charles:

Well, yeah, right, yeah, you're going to distrust my assessments about stuff. You're going to look at me as someone who is standing in the way of progress. And what happens to your body if you are looking at me as someone who's standing in the way of your idea of progress?

Ila:

I did a little. There's a withdraw, there's a constriction in my head. I'm dismissing, you're an obstacle. I can either go over you or around you, but I'm certainly not with you.

Charles:

I think my body moves to a kind of a stance of an offensive linebacker.

Ila:

That's my linebacker move.

Charles:

Yeah, I'm going to just bowl this person over. Yeah, knock them out of the way, because they're standing in the way of what I think should happen.

Ila:

Right, or what is happening, whether we like it or not.

Charles:

So get on board. Yeah, none of which is valuable.

Ila:

No, no, no, None of which is trust-building behaviors. Nope, none of this helps us. I think the other little whisper that's happening in my brain is the accountability for me again navigating this very large change. I definitely have my two or three trusted colleagues where I can have healthy venting and share my frustration and I can't point to which episode it was, but there was an amazing, amazing podcast with Adam Grant and Simon Sinek talking about the importance of healthy venting. So, again, who do I trust to hear my story, that it stays confidential, that I can share again my frustrations, my annoyance and I definitely have those.

Ila:

I think the other accountability that I want to be clear on and dial up my commitment to is how am I showing up in the community that is also navigating this change, and we can point this again to organizational work. So, when something like this is happening, absolutely have your trusted colleagues where you can healthy vent. That's really important. And also, how are you showing up to the rest of the organization or to your team or to your division? What are you saying? What are you doing? How are you behaving to the rest of the organization or to your team or to your division? What are you saying what are you doing, how are you behaving? Because there's an impact.

Charles:

And in one way of looking at it, the people who are really resistant do have an impact on everyone else. If they're resistant, it depends on how they're resistant. You know, if they're resistant saying hey, I don't think we have enough information, I don't think this is. There are better ways of doing this. I would like to participate, I'd like to have my voice heard in this process. That's one thing. If they're resisting through cynicism, for example, that poisons the entire organization. Yeah, what did Dan and Curtis have to say about cynicism?

Ila:

Oh, hang on, this one was a good one, I think. Okay, so cynicism's purpose is let us challenge ungrounded excitement.

Charles:

What.

Ila:

Yeah, Its purpose is to let us challenge ungrounded excitement, which I want to go quickly to skepticism. So he says we confuse skepticism with cynicism. Skepticism occurs when we're faced with a choice between a belief we hold and a new option. Cynicism is the inability to believe others' good intentions and the desire to recruit others into our own view. So I want that first part. Cynicism is the inability to believe others' good intentions. I'm holding my breath.

Charles:

I'm not sure I agree with that personally. The cynicism I don't want to go off on this for too long because it's kind of a little bit of a tangent.

Ila:

That's okay, we'll have a small tangent.

Charles:

Cynics don't trust themselves and they don't trust the world, and they're trying to recruit others into that space.

Ila:

And so when we look at the other things that Dan writes, so cynicism closes us. Oh, in organizations, the most caustic emotion is cynicism. It means that we've resigned. We are resigned and we want to convince others to join us.

Charles:

Yep that's it, that, yep, that's it.

Ila:

That's it, that's it.

Charles:

Julio Olaya, who is the founder of Newfield Network Coach Training School, used to call cynicism advanced resignation.

Ila:

Yeah, it's like amped up resignation.

Charles:

Amped up resignation. Yeah, advanced, intelligent resignation. He used the word intelligent very intentionally Cynical people are very intelligent and they're very resigned and they want to pull other people into their resignation, and so I love that you bring up that idea of how are you showing up in the organization or with the team or in the group with regard to the change. Are you showing up as a skeptic, which is, to my mind, a skeptic is someone to say, hey, wait a minute, we don't have enough data or there could be different ways to look at this. Let's not just jump on this train and toot the whistle and go. Let's look at it carefully. A cynic is saying, hey, we're going to drown in this, we're all going to leave down. I want you to join me in this mood of despair.

Ila:

There's an interesting sentence again in Dan's book about how this emotion of cynicism gets in the way. Cynicism gives the person experiencing it power.

Charles:

Yeah, and how many times we think about it. Who's seen that? On teams where the cynic can override other people's more positive emotions and moods or sometimes can't it takes a bit of effort and work to push against it.

Ila:

Yeah, oh, this is fascinating.

Charles:

Yeah, and some trust and confidence in oneself and one's own vision.

Ila:

There is a very active online community conversation again about this change and it makes me want to go back and reread. Well, a I don't comment lightly. And B I think I want to go and check my own words and see if there's any either repair or maybe a smaller conversation with someone or just really chat. I want to be really in integrity about this. It's hard, it's really sucks. In a lot of ways. I've got a lot of spice and juiciness behind this and at the same time, I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror and know that I am accountable for how I show up, for what I say, for what I do, even when it's hard, especially when it's hard.

Charles:

And that's how you build trust. Yeah, that's how you show up as a trustworthy individual, because you've done the internal work.

Ila:

We practice what we need when we don't need it, so that when we do need it, that tool, that skill, that behavior is readily available for us. And I think, speaking back to our audience, our lovely listeners, navigating change in this triangulation of trust transference and the complexity that is part of our normal everyday life for many of us, doesn't mean that we get it right. There's no expectation that you're going to show up as human and have the right conversations, behave in the right way, say the right things, do the right things, align the right emotions. That's not possible. I think you know. What we're talking about here is pausing and checking in with self. Is there anything that I need to do differently? How am I showing up? How is this impacting, intentionally or unintentionally, the people that are also affected? And go find that person that's digging in and resisting and be curious about what's going on for you. How can I support you? I really want to hear your perspective.

Charles:

Yeah, or if I'm the one who's digging in and being resistant. What's going on for me, what is underneath that resistance, what are the fears that are maybe in there, or anger or whatever, whatever emotions, and what's behind those emotions? What are my assessments all of that? I also want to go back to something you just said about the expectation that we're going to get this right and it's all going to flow and we're going to be perfect. There's also a trap, because sometimes we do have that expectation, we carry that expectation, and when somebody does something that betrays that expectation because they're human then we get upset, we start distrust. It all goes to a hill in a handbasket, as they say.

Charles:

I think, again, going back to just the territory we've covered here, is that the trust transfer, whether it's to another individual, to an organization, as in the case of you know. What you're talking about is in the case of bringing in a consulting firm to you know. Okay, I'm the CIO and I'm hiring this consulting firm to do this IT upgrade change thing. You need to trust them because I trust them. Any of that kind of stuff is full of potential problems, potential potholes along the way.

Charles:

We, as individuals navigating it, can look at it from a perspective of trust and really dig in. Do we trust in the domain of care? If not, what is it missing? What conversations are missing? Do we trust in the domain of sincerity? If not, so much again, what conversations are missing? Or alternately, if we do, what are the conversations that are there that are bringing that forward? The same with reliability and competence. So thank you, hila, for bringing this forward. I love it. This has turned out to be a much juicier topic than I was afraid it might be in the very beginning oh yeah, Thank you for engaging and this has been good To our listeners.

Charles:

Thank you for listening and I hope this is a bit of value to you and we'll catch you next time.

Ila:

Thank you too, charles. We'll see you next time. On behalf of both Charles and myself, we want to say a big thank you to our producer and sound editor, chad Penner. Hilary Rideout of Inside Out Branding, who does our promotion, our amazing graphics and marketing for us, and our theme music was composed by Jonas Smith. If you have any questions or comments for us about the podcast, if you have a trust-related situation that you'd like us to take up in one of our episodes, we'd love to hear from you at trust, at trustonpurposeorg.

Charles:

And we'd also like to thank you, our listeners. Take care and keep building trust on purpose Until next time.

Ila:

Until next time.

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Charles Feltman

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Ila Edgar

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