How Would a Trust-Building KPI Benefit Your Company?

Trust-building isn’t just a nice concept; it can be identified as a key performance indicator that can reshape how consistently people build and maintain trust within an organization and even with external stakeholders.

We're joined by Sandra Rose and Leonie von Uthmann from NRICHED, who introduce their groundbreaking tool, TrustY - an innovative product that puts a number on trust in your organization. Together, we break down the four essential pillars of trust - sincerity, reliability, competence, and care - and explore how each one impacts workplace dynamics and how each can be measured to pinpoint opportunities for strengthening.

Sandra and Leonie share real-world stories that show how companies can measure and improve trust levels, leading to more engaged teams and less turnover. And we tackle the shift from seeing trust as a "soft skill" to recognizing it as a vital business metric that drives success.

We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Jodi Carrington
• 5:25 Jodi's Journey: From Trauma Work to First Responders
• 10:21 The Loneliness Epidemic and Human Connection
• 16:44 Trust, Trauma, and Emotional Regulation
• 24:44 Sleep Deprivation and Attention Fragmentation
• 32:42 Breaking Free from Compliance and Burnout
• 39:18 Walking Each Other Home: Practical Steps

Transcript

Hi, my name is Charles Feldman and my name is Ila Edgar. And we are here for another episode of Trust on Purpose. And before you jump in, Charles, I have to say. We have two special guests. I'm not gonna say anything about them, but I am gonna say I am already deeply madly in love with both of them. So I can't wait to share this with you And this conversation, Charles, over to you?

Yes, and I have to say I'm in love with them both too. They're both colleagues and friends. Sandra Rose and Leone. Van Mann, they are from Germany. And then we're gonna let them introduce themselves a little bit, but I will also say that these are two of my favorite people in the world. Two of my four or five or six.

You being one of them, Ila. Or 10 or 12. I dunno. But anyway, these are wonderful people and we're about to embark on, I think a very interesting conversation. Can I just turn it over to you, Leone first, and then Sandra to just give us a quick overview of you know, who you are and Yeah. I am very happy to be here and, uh, thanks Ian and Charles, uh, for inviting us.

Yeah, I'm, I'm Leoni. I am 39 years old. I'm sitting in my shower booth, as you know, in Berlin and yeah, I actually, I was born in Hamburg and grew up in Frank with two um, siblings and I am almost living in Burton for 16 years. From my professional background, I'm a psychologist and I've started to accompany teams and leaders and companies in transformation journeys, and yeah, since 2016, during this time, I also had the pleasure to meet my co-founder, Sandra.

Yeah, we were working on a project and realizing that. We want to do something different with all our knowledge, and that's why I am sitting here today. Thank you, Leoni. And I, I just want to add that she's sitting in her shower booth because it's also an excellent sound booth. That's true. Sandra, do you wanna jump in here?

Yes, yes. I'm still kind of struck by the lovely introduction you've done from both of us here. So I'm, I'm the second co-founder to enrich, uh, to my lovely co-founder Leoni. My name is Sandra. I'm, um, 57 years old and I'm based in Hamburg and I live here with my family. I've been living here for the last 20 years, and before that I've been living around the world in Vietnam and Asia, and also for professional in for curiosity reasons, like why are people different?

In what cultures are they different, what makes us different and what do we have in common? I think that's the even more important question. Having done this with an educational background of being an like studied hotel management, being economist, loving neuroscience, doing my master now, at least I'm trying to, and yeah, this is what brought us together, like basically the core of what's human and what do we humans have in common, either outside of the organizations but also inside.

And what is the key of every relationship we're building in organizations towards customers, towards employees? I'd rather prefer to say colleagues and to our suppliers and um, partners. So basically, what's the core? That is trust. And this is basically what made us go that direction. If it's so important.

And if that's the core, why don't we measure it? Why don't we make it grow more like a muffle? And this is how Leone and I got together saying, this is our mission and this is how we discovered you guys, especially you Charles, with your friend Mark. Great. And I'll just want to add, so the company that you're referring to that you mentioned just briefly enriched Leone and Sandra are the co-owners of this company.

And so maybe at this point it would be great to talk a little bit about the service that the company is. Making as introduced and will be selling, uh, continues to selling actually. So if you could talk a little bit about the TrustY is the name of it. And so this is the primary service right now that enriched is selling.

Tell us a little bit about what a service is and why it might be of value for customers who might buy it. Please. Is it, is it my turn? I was wondering. Okay, so yeah, we were looking at each other, you know, funny though, it's like being in a, in a relationship, like being married to each other, so Of course, yes.

Thank you for inviting us to talk about it. So what we do is. We will measure trust, like I said. And is it possible to measure trust because that's what TrustY does? If trust is so important, as we say, if it's the essence of everything we do in relationships and by doing business, so why don't we measure it and TrustY.

Measures trust. You can imagine it being like a, like a body scan of an organization. The organization goes through that body scan and it's measured by the four dimensions of trust. I don't need to tell you what they are, but maybe I do like sincerity, reliability, competence, and care. And those four dimensions together are the TrustY score.

What we learned and which was my big awakening when I read your book for the first time, it's 2017 in New York, and I thought, oh my God, it's not zero one game. It's in how much trust is in there. And this is what TrustY does. It doesn't measure whether trust is there or not there. It measures how much of each of those dimensions is there and also together it's trusty.

How much trust, how strong is this relationship? Is this about to break? Or is it so strong that it can stand? The big wins, the big tornadoes, the big, you know, transformations, uh, organizations go through political problems, economical challenges. So this is how we build TrustY. So TrustY measures those four dimensions, and the TrustY score is all those four dimensions together.

And maybe, and because Leoni with her psychological background, she is a. Product owner and she has more like maybe you want to add some more how that works technically, Leoni? Yeah, of course. I mean, as Sandra said already, TrustY measures, um, the four dimensions of trust, but it's not the only thing because, because we have learned by talking to.

Companies and, um, yeah. Interviewing potential client, then just having the evaluation of trust is, is not enough. And then they also need like actionable points to, to improve the trust of, of their, yeah. Their relevant stakeholders. And so what we have done, um, by this tool, it's a cloud-based tool. The TrustY first step is measuring the four dimension, and then you as a client can have a look on our dashboard and see all the analyzers about the four dimensions and about also like text input, which is given by employees, by by customers or partners.

And based on, on these two results, like the key indicators and also the statements which was given TrustY, um, recommends concrete action points and to dos how you can improve the trust to each stakeholder. So I am making up a story in my head. It's based on probably a number of clients that I've worked with.

Yeah. In the trust space. So let's just say this particular organization engages with you both to do the TrustY assessment and they think that their trust scores Yes. Will be pretty high. Right. We definitely have trust in this organization. We're doing a good job. And then, and then they see their results.

And it actually gives them these beautiful data points that validates, yes, there is trust here, or here's where there's opportunity to increase and improve. Yeah. And so I'm curious about when you present the data to clients, what kind of reactions are you seeing? And I think my secondary question would be.

How willing are they to do the work to actually improve or increase trust? So maybe I'm taking upon the first question Le and you take a second. So how surprised are they by the result, right? Yeah. Is that what you were asking Ina? And that is interesting because. Most companies who are courageous enough to really wanting to know what is going on because we make something invisible, visible.

Right, right. You just have a guess before, but then you know. Yep. And the one IT company we used to work with only recently, 120 employees, they were having a guess what are our strongest trust muscles, like we call them muscles because you can train them like the four dimensions. They would go, yes, it is.

It is sincerity. We are very sincere. We would openly say things, we would talk about things. And interestingly, once the result was there, and that doesn't happen all the time, that's the contrary. But in this case, it was exactly the contrary. It was the lowest of the four dimensions. Mm-hmm. And they were in shock because we asked them explicitly to have you guessed before and see where you are.

So. What we understood was, and what we learned and what they learned too, it's like they had a blind spot. They were thinking about something they were doing in a way that it was not perceived by their actions, but by what their stakeholders had received as an action. And the interesting thing was, so basically they were diving into conversations.

So what is it exactly what you need? What is exactly you missed? I wanna go there. I don't wanna go there, but. TrustY would also give an action point and which was one of them amongst them, because we usually offer four out of those written elements because there is a question also, there are questions, open questions, and our large language model would go and choose and elaborate on tailor made action points, not just Annie.

Tailor made for that company. So basically they received direct action points, suggestions, five of them. They chose one in a team. That's, I don't wanna go there too much in detail. Yeah. But there was one they chose immediately. They said, we will do a fuckup night every month so that we would learn to talk about mistakes, because these guys were so cool.

You know, very cool. Mistakes were not discussed because. We all know it. It's better to look good, right? It's hard to look bad and to admit mistakes and all that. So that was a hard thing. And they started this by doing that. And you know, that was the suggestion they chose. And then uni might like to elaborate on what happened then.

Yeah, because it was really interesting. But like having these fuck up nights and you asked if they really do something with the action points. Right. And they did. But the outcome or the bigger outcome by doing these fuck up nights was not talking about their mistakes, but to give them feedback. And they realized that there haven't been open feedback, transparent feedback before.

And then there was like also like the big elephant in the room was showing up and was visible. I. When I talked in, in October, I guess with one of our contact, she told me that they have a really healthy and also constructive conflict solution process within the team, and that there was some topics on the table, which haven't been, haven't been discussed, or.

You've mentioned before, so from our point of view and you might connect, it was great success and we, we laugh, trust you for that. Of course. I love that. And I think in our world of assessments, there's lots of really great assessments and many of them, I think when we go through them or an organization takes the time to go through them and the data is presented, it's like, oh, okay.

You know, that's fine. And then nothing is actually done. So the fact that TrustY helps identify custom tailored specific action points. And then I'm also envisioning that this organization has the support of you two to like, so how do we actually do this? How are we actually going to build those mu the muscle of sincerity or the muscle of competence or the muscle of care?

Then yeah. Being supported to do that. I love, I love that. And I think that's where maybe this is a differentiator with TrustY versus some of the other assessments that I've bumped into where it's like, here's your data, you know, 87 page report. Yeah.  Read it and let me know if you've got any questions.

Yeah, and actually it was also the feedback from clients we've always got that that's the game changer, that they have something concrete. To do and not only like, also like buy in very expensive consultants like us before to help them that they can do it. Also like self-organized by themselves. Yeah, and this is so funny also because Calgary just had a fuckup night last week and it was a sold out event.

That's cool. And I think, I think it's a franchise now so that it's all happening all over the world. But for this client, it's something that is small. Yeah, true, but actionable and look at the results it's already producing. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. I wanna kind of open up a little bit different topic here.

When Leoni and Sandra, well Sandra, I guess you were the first person to kind of contact me. One of the questions you asked me. Was what if trust was a KPI, which immediately hooked me. And you know what you said was we think that this assessment can actually allow companies to make a KPI around trust building and be able to measure it in a way that they can have the feedback for the managers, the leaders, whoever.

And so I just kind of go back into a little bit and talk little bit about. How you came up with that idea and or thought about that and how you see it now? Yes. What if trust was a KPI is still a guiding vision. Like what would a world, would the leading KPI of trust look like? Like what would be different?

And this is still our vision. I mean, sometimes people look at us like, are you kind of nuts? So this is truly what we're looking into because how does. Economy serve people. Obviously the economy as profit, and we are here to make profits. Everyone is here to make profits. But the question is, how do we do that?

And this is the guiding questions or has been the guiding question for us. So if we were measuring success differently, if we were not going on a short term, like I've been like a quarter of my professional life, I've been a financial person controller. So KPI was my thing, I. I look at numbers and the thing was, and the interesting numbers guide us, like Peter Drucker said it, you can't manage what you can't measure.

And the thing is, if we don't measure what's important, like an important success factor is trust. So how come we don't measure it? And how come we are not guided by it? Meaning if we were to look into what are the current KPIs revenue? Productivity, I dunno what else? Quarterly departmental, uh, successes, whatever it is always very short term.

And what I've seen so, so, so countless many times is like at the end of the year where the bonuses are coming up, there is this goal like, I'm gonna have this revenue, or we were going to have this profit. No matter what happens to those relationships, if any physicians are free, I might not look for someone else because at the end, at the bottom line, I will look successful to the usual measurements.

But in the end, maybe it's not successful and costly because those people who have to do the job of the person who just left maybe in October. Might even leave as well or talk about the company in a bad way, reputation wise. So there is a lot of costs involved long term, but short term, everybody's looking into a bonus and we look at each and say, Hey, how successful we have less costs, how cool are we?

So the question is, if we were to measure trust, which shows a long-term thing, if I can build more trust, a stronger trust, because in TrustY we have this risk assessment. We haven't really elaborated on this, so how strong are your relationships in your company? How did you build them? And if TrustY is in the risk zone, for example, you might not get your bonus because you didn't invest in long-term development of people.

So this is basically like in addition, obviously profit will never go because it's a must for a company. The question is, how do I manage my stakeholders more a stakeholder value. Instead of a shareholder value, where the shareholder is a stakeholder too, obviously, right? This is what, probably very lengthy explanation, but this is what's the reason why we thought there would be so much difference if we were measuring success differently and offer a new measurement.

And not only that, because measurements are always looking into the past, but if we were to offer a measurement that also helps develop the future, and this is why we've combined those two.  Because we're coaches in the end and we believe in companies, they can do it themselves. They know best. Nobody from the outside needs to tell them maybe some impulses, but in the end, you know what to do and this is what it's for.

The KPI, I hope that answers your question, Charles. It does. Thank you. And I was just talking with somebody yesterday. We were talking about a bunch of different things, one of which is turnover and people leaving companies and the cost of that. And it's pretty high. Some companies and some industries more than others, but it's always a cost.

Yeah. And it's a drag on revenue and it's a drag on profitability. And the number one reason that people leave has been shown over and over again is their relationship with their direct manager. That's the primary reason that people leave companies. Yeah. So if there's trust, if there's a strong relationship there, I.

People are going to be less likely to leave. And so all the costs associated with that go away. So having trust as a KPI, it seems to me is just makes all the sense in the world. So thank you for elaborating that. Yeah. Eli, you look like you have a question. Well, I don't know if either of you have seen, there's maybe a three minute video produced by Simon Sinek on trust.

Yes, of course. The one where he works with the Navy Seals. Yes. Yes. For the Navy Seals. I, I love it. Yes. I love that video and I, I use it a lot, but I feel like now I would invite the two of you to reach out to Simon and say, no, we actually do have a way to measure trust. Hello? Yeah. We've been thinking about this actually.

Yeah. Do a video for him and, and make him aware that we are here actually, yes. And I support that. If I knew Simon, I would introduce you. Me too. Oh yeah, that would be lovely. I just have a secret crush on him. Well, now it's not secret 'cause I just announced it. You are not the only one. It's not now. It's on the table.

It's on the table.  I think one of the things that, you know, this is also inviting us to look at is what are the behaviors that we are reinforcing and rewarding? Yes. And I think of. A client that I worked with have worked with them for a few years and they were so focused, their KPIs were so focused on their sales targets and absolutely financially bonusing and rewarding their top salespeople plus, you know, president's Club and trips and all of this stuff.

When we paused and said, how are people getting to that? Like what are the behaviors. And could we amplify those behaviors with other people. But when we dug into it, we actually found that, guess what, many of these top performers were leaving dead bodies in carnage in the hallways because they were doing shady deals or stealing deals from their peers or all of these things, which is in the long term damaging.

And the organization is reinforcing the wrong behaviors. So how do we still achieve those KPIs while building trust and strong relationships versus, you know, under the table where stealing and cheating and doing shady deals. So I really appreciate how I think this is refocusing and can refocus on how do we do this in a way that builds trust in is sustainable and measurable versus like, yeah, I think we're doing okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. May I add some, because there's something you elaborated on, which I think is very, very interesting and important that. We come across the notion a lot, Leoni and myself, that this is a naive approach. And it's interesting because the facts talk so differently. Like what you just referred to Charles, like 15% more trust in leaders and managers.

It's studies that suggested countless ones and we've documented them on our website. They need to a 5% or 25%, depending up like this is just a lower limit of ebit. Per year. I mean, it's not a romantic thing, it's just a way of, I think, rethinking business. Do I have in sales close the deal real quick, because that's my measurement.

I need to close five deals, no matter whether that's favorable to the person in front of me, whether that solves this customer's problem. I'm doing it because I need the deal. So who am I with? Am I with myself or am I acting in the interest of the customer, which is innately care? You know, the dimension of care.

And this is such an interesting question. It's like, is it still okay or is it okay to rethink certain business normalities? Might that be a thing? Well, and why wouldn't we? Yes. Why wouldn't we rethink? Is that not what evolution and progress and innovation is all about? Like why wouldn't we? Especially if the data points to here's what it's accomplishing and here's what it's helping us do.

Yeah. You know, I told this story before, I think on this podcast, in my first job, in the first company I worked for in the high tech industry in Silicon Valley, I was in marketing and I would sometimes go out with the salespeople on sales calls, and there was a woman, I think her name was Kirsten or Kristen, I can't remember for sure, but she was the top salesperson in the company.

By the time I got there, she'd been top salesperson of the year for three or four years running or something like that, going on a sales call. I got the opportunity to spend some time with her and I said, so, you know, what is it that you do that's kind of unique that you can point to that allows you to do this so well, so effectively?

And one of the things too is that a lot of the sales were repeat sales to individual customers that she had developed. And she said very simply. Any interaction that I have with my customers or really anybody else, I wanna take care of two things I wanna take care of moving the task forward, whatever the task is moving forward on this sale, or moving forward on this trial or moving forward on whatever.

And the equally important piece is building relationship and trust. So for in her mind and what made her successful was that she covered both of those spaces equally. And I think that's what you're talking about here. And now there's a way you can measure that, which I think is, that's the key here. It's really hard to say, okay, let's, uh, trust each other.

You know, let's build trust and you know, how do we do that? Well, you can do these things, but how do you know if it's actually working? That's what I really think is profound and powerful about this service and this idea. And we also came across. There were some sorts of, isn't it a bigger risk to know, to be crystal clear about our trust level in a team or with our clients?

So this is sometimes also a challenge. Mm-hmm. We are curious that not everybody wants to know it for sure, because it has a great power also to show, show the weaker points. Yeah. I just have to wonder though, when people who don't want to know, what are they afraid of? I can give an example. One person we appreciate a lot, the CEO, he would say, you know, we've done the TrustY and I can't sleep because I'm really fearing the results.

I said, so what are you, you know, what are you afraid of? What is the worst thing that can happen and what you cannot do anything about? He's like, so actually let's home. But the thing was, and that that's a valid thing, you cannot talk somebody out of his fear. I mean, we know that, right? It doesn't work.

It's there. And the key thing was he said, the only thing I know for sure is if I see people don't trust me and I have a black on white or most people in my company that did the employee TrustY. The colleague TrustY, right? So it was an internal TrustY. What does the board think of me? That's the only thing because they can withdraw me their trust easily.

They could say, look, look at that black and white. You are not the leader we need for that company. And that's it. So I to hear that, it sounds kind of logical, right? It's like obviously. Mm-hmm. And do I. Now that I, I make the decision to do the TrustY, why would I do that? Am I crazy? You know, like what clearly addresses is a clear barrier for some, because the people who do it, they are really innovators.

They would say, no matter what, I can do things about it. And that's my job. I'm gonna do this no matter how good the news are. Mm-hmm. And it's okay because it's new. It's a different way of thinking. Also to encourage, and it might be hard for some, I mean, it's hard for us sometimes as a product, you know, like and a service.

We call it more service than a product. It is a product, but it serves an organization. That's what it's for. Yeah. Just to add that, that's what they're fearful of sometimes, and I think it comes down to psychological safe culture. And also I. If like a CEO has a feeling of self efficiency, so do I feel competent and feel the power to rebuild trust and to be transparent enough about the blind spot I had or others have?

And I, I think this speaks so much to courageous leadership.  So I don't know anything about this client that you're speaking of, but the story that I'm making up is that as he looked left and right in his organization, he saw some things that he wanted to be able to impact and influence and change.

Didn't have the data points, but TrustY helped him have the data points. And we don't step into courage like that lightly. It's, I can see these things and I feel like I can do something about them with support, and I care enough to stand up and do something about it. Versus, I think, and I don't wanna, how do I say this?

There are leaders that it's not their time, it's not their place or whatever it is, where it's easier to leave things under the table. I think there are some things that maybe need to be addressed, but I'm not. Ready, willing, or able to, and that's okay. But I really wanna highlight like leadership isn't easy. Yeah. And so I really applaud the courage of this leader that you're speaking of to say, even though I can't sleep at night, even though I'm fearful, I know that this is the right thing to do because I care about my organization. It's courageous and I think it's very powerful that. Trust has to go with courage.

From my point of view, it's a very powerful message. I think Eden that trust not only between me and others, but also self-trust, being able to trust themselves to, to lead through this and move the company forward by taking an honest look at whatever's going on and acting from that point, I. Can ask you, 'cause we've talked multiple times about the service.

So there's the internal use of the service within a company, which is what you've talked about, given a couple of examples about. But there's also potential external uses of it. You can use trusty to measure trust of your customers. And obviously you'd have to have permission for your customers to do that, but you can use it that way.

So you could gain an insight into how well your customers trust you. And in what ways might that trust be strong and in what ways maybe could that trust be improved? And the same thing with suppliers and vendors. So I just wanna ask, are people interested in that at all or are they mostly interested in the service for internal use?

I can like answer is from my sales perspective, right? Because I'm talking to potential customers a lot and currently when you look at the market situation and we hear a lot, our key pain is how do we find and key talent I. So that's the key pain at the moment. So the, to your question, Charles, this is very often the case that what do we do to find out how our people talk about us?

Meaning that if I have to find people, I need to first know what our people say about us, right? Reputation, do I have word of mouth? Am I so high in our TrustY risk zone that people would recommend me? Am I as far that they trust me so deeply they'd say, Hey, come over work for us and dedicate your talent and time to us or not, and what do I know about it?

So they want to know that more. Mostly what we understand currently about the assessment, and it's politically a turmoil around this, but about the ESG, like the reporting about how sustainably do we do business. I'm sure you are aware of the CSRD regulations around this. Have you heard like what you need to report on how you do business and there is this other piece you take care of your inner value chain, meaning your partners, like what you just mentioned, Charles, we call it partners, it's more like us, but suppliers, vendors, whatever you call it.

To ask them how they're doing and to have their value chain. And it's interesting because whenever we mention we do this and we have asked them questions, it's so interesting that someone who, let's say I'm delivering something to you, ILA, and you are asking me back because actually you are my client, right?

I could ask you how happy are you with my services? But you asking, you turning it upside down and say, Hey, but just to know how, how well can you do whatever you're supposed to do for me? I didn't deliver, or did I deliver too little or am I not reachable enough? So what else do you need from me so you can work better for me?

And this has been a game changer for them. It's like, I've never been asked that question TrustY wise. Obviously everything pays into those four. So this is growing because this reporting is coming and this partner TrustY is evolving at the moment because there's a need for that reporting to basically get back to your question.

The customer TrustY. I don't know what you would say. Leoni, you've had a few interested potential customers who were maybe you wanna share? Mm, I mean, we had this health company from Switzerland and they are interesting to do it this year. I think their biggest pain was that they already, of course, most of the companies we talked to do something or ask their customer for feedback, but their biggest pain or challenge was that it was not summarized in a way, or that it was not collected by one data pool.

So our TrustY's advantage was that they could show or could see. Data at one tool. And also as we talked about earlier, that they don't only get numbers, but that they also can understand how to improve these relations. And also I think remembering, talking to them last time that our survey question was so much more powerful to what they have before that was yeah, promising for them.

Thank you. That's interesting because of the fact that you can use this service in these different ways and what are people really looking for? I want to ask you one last question, if I may. Ila might have our last question also, but my last question is, what are your hopes for enriched and the TrustY service going forward and trust in general?

Just, you know, the, the whole idea of building trust in companies within companies. Shall I start, RA? Okay. Yeah, of course. We hope that that trust is conquering the business world and that in three to five years from now, it's a unique technical solution to shape the economy by measuring trust as key factor of business success.

So I think if you ask what is our hope for trust in general, that is, yeah, that is understood. To have a key impact on building trust. Not only trust, but also being successful. That is a hard fact of, of success and not a soft skill. That would be my hope. And yeah, we as a company, of course, want to build our team based on these four trust muscles.

Also for marketing reason to prove that we can do it by ourselves. But is more strong than proving it's for us that we do what we say. Nice. Yeah. I might add, if I may, that exactly that, and also if TrustY can replace those. Kind of survey things that end up in a drawer and nothing happens. It's so frustrating.

So if I give my voice, somebody hears it, no matter who I am. If you ask me, I listen. And I think if that's taken for a business world in a formal way, like the TrustY, but also then do something with it that would change so much. I so strongly believe in it. We both do. And when we look into the future, because we were asking about our hopes, look into the future that these.

Non-used surveys will be replaced by TrustY. If there are, they're used and they're useful, keep them, but otherwise replace them and then would go into the future doing business, winning with trust, because that's the key. You winning with trust. You do profit by trust. That's our key thinking and for generations in the future, for our children, for our grandchildren, not that we just do business.

Short term and resources go out the window. People, purpose, profit, everything the same level, nothing more or less. So this is basically, I think, what's the reason, what we hope for and why we, why we did what we did. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Love it. Yeah. Ila, do you have any last thoughts? I do, I do. I feel like my heart is bursting and I feel so much hope.

And you know, again, having a way to measure something that's so incredibly important and in a way that's operationalized, like you can actually do something with it. And again, I'm thinking of a, a recent client who does a yearly, very large survey. I won't mention it, and is often, she's the VP of HR and is often disappointed because although there's lots of questions and lots of categories

It's so elusive and so vague that it's not actionable. And so what I really hear is like, this is really great data that can really, really change an organization in a way that's measurable. So my heart is bursting and I just like, I wanna just sing from the mountaintops about the work that you two are doing.

So on that follow up note, how would you like people to find you? Just come and visit us, right? Well, I will, yes. Yeah. In the shower booth or, yeah, in the shower booth. We're gonna have a dance party in your shower booth. Yeah. Well, we certainly will, of course, put links to. Enriched and your LinkedIn and so on in the show notes, but are there other specific ways that you could say right now you would like people to come find you?

Yeah, maybe we can offer our monthly LinkedIn event trust for lunch, and this is an hour where we, yeah, where we want to invite people to chat with us about their trust experiences and so that we both, each other can learn from each other. Great. Or write us an email and say, Hey, this is what I'm curious about.

Tell me more. And then we will not sell because that's not how we are. We want to know what the topic is and then we will help solve it or point to a person who can. Yeah. So please get in touch with us. We'll make sure you get the email. So if anybody wants to do this, you're clearly invited to. Fabulous.

And also we are very curious about your face, your thoughts, your objections. Please let us know. Great. Well, it's been wonderful having you on our show, on our podcast. I personally, I know, have great hopes for TrustY and where it could take the business world. I think it's really the right track and the future, and so I'm really excited about what you are doing.

Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. Thank you both for this lovely conversation. Yeah, and for delivering the framework. Chad, you are source of inspiration for TrustY. Lovely. Thank you. On behalf of both Charles and myself, we wanna say a big thank you to our producer and sound editor, Chad Penner, Hillary Ride out of Inside Out branding, who does our promotion, our amazing graphics and marketing press.

Our scene music was composed by Jonas Smith. If you have any questions or comments for us about the podcast, if you have a trust related situation that you'd like us to take up in one of our episodes, we'd love to hear from you at Trust, at trust on purpose.org, and we'd also like to thank you, our listeners, take care and keep building trust on purpose.

Until next time. Until next time.