Trust on Purpose
Are you intentional about building, maintaining or repairing trust with the people in your life? Most of us aren’t, and sometimes important relationships suffer as a result. So much of what is right or amiss in those relationships ties back to trust, whether we realize it or not. We are dedicated to helping you become intentional about cultivating strong trust with everyone important in your life: the people and teams you lead and work with, and your family, friends and community, as well. In the Trust on Purpose podcast, we dive into everything that makes up trust, what supports and damages it. We unpack situations we commonly see with leaders, teams, organizations, and others we work with to show how trust can be strengthened, sustained, and repaired when broken. Listen in for conversations between two pros who care deeply about you being an intentional and masterful trust-builder in your life so you and your relationships flourish. We share pragmatic and actionable takeaways you can use immediately and deepen with practice. If you have questions or situations related to trust that you’d like us to talk about in a future episode, please email charles@insightcoaching.com or ila@bigchangeinc.com.
We'd like to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music that you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for the superpower editing work that he does to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to the smooth and easy to listen to episodes you are all enjoying. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.
Trust on Purpose
I shouldn't have to explain this
Send us a message - we'd love to hear from you
"I shouldn't have to explain this." Sound familiar? A lot of leaders feel this way about making clear requests of people. It creates a destructive cycle: vague directions lead to poor results, which fuel resentment and reinforce the belief that explanation shouldn't be necessary.
The hidden cost is teams divided between mind-readers and the confused, while everyone wastes time "spinning," trying to guess what leaders actually want. What feels like giving creative freedom often creates anxiety and inefficiency instead.
We explore how cultural pressure to move fast reinforces communication shortcuts, yet spending time on clear requests upfront saves massive time fixing problems later. We'll challenge you to ask yourself: "Am I more committed to my belief that I shouldn't have to explain this, or to getting the result I want?"
Whether you're a frustrated leader or someone constantly guessing what your boss wants, this episode offers practical insights to break the cycle. Notice your own "shoulding" and consider whether it's serving you and your team.
We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.
Hello, my name is Charles Feldman.
Speaker 2:And my name is Ila Edgar, and we're here for another episode of Trust on Purpose.
Speaker 1:Thank you, ila. And today we're going to go back into a subject we've talked about before, but we're going to kind of look at it from a different perspective, and so what I'm going to ask you to do is is tell the story that you told me a little while ago, and we can use that as a jumping off point, because this is, I think, one of the places that we don't usually end up digging into but I think needs to be understood better. And so yeah, okay, repeat, okay.
Speaker 2:Repeat that story please.
Speaker 2:I'll tell the story. So I, I had the um, uh, the honor of working with a really I won't mention the client, but like I love working with this client Um, and we had about 95 leaders in the room and the topic was about, um, the cycle of a commitment, or making clear and complete requests. Now, interestingly actually this is a little side note um, what the client had originally asked for was the art of delegation, which I'm planting here now because I think that's another episode that we want to do. I have personal beliefs about delegation, anyway, so I helped refocus and steer them on. Let's look at the psycholoid commitment and actually how to make clear and complete requests. So I'll give a little context in that we started with an exercise where I had everyone write a recent request and bonus points if they didn't get what they wanted. So bonus points if you didn't get what you wanted. We also did a show of hands on average, how many of you actually get what you want when you make a request. So that was an interesting visual representation. I'd say maybe 60% of the room said yeah, I, I usually get close to what I want.
Speaker 2:So interesting, we worked through the cycle of a commitment, talked about all of the different parts of it which, charles, you and I have talked about before in a previous episode, so I won't go into detail.
Speaker 2:And then I had them go back to that request that they wrote and rewrite it in a way that makes it a clear and complete request, so that really sets that other person up for success, the performer up for success. So I gave them a few minutes to do that and then I paused and said, as you look at this request, how many of you are feeling or thinking internally I shouldn't have to do this, and I probably had about 30 participants raise their hand and I, well, immediately I'm like thank you so much for your vulnerability and your honesty and transparency and letting us know that that's what you're thinking. But it also right Wow, a little bit staggering to me just the observer, the person that I am, and how strong that shooting was that I shouldn't have to do this, that I shouldn't have to do this, I shouldn't have to be so clear and articulate or detailed in my request. So I want to pause there and just let you jump in before we go further. What are you thinking?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, a bunch of things. But, yes, I actually find myself thinking that at times too, it's like why can't people just read my mind? What's the matter with people? Why can't they just read my mind and figure it out? But all kidding aside, I think that that actually is a fairly common thought, that people have a fairly common sentiment that people have when confronted with this.
Speaker 1:You know, we're trying to help them recognize that the more clear and complete a request is, the more likely the other person then, when they say yes, knows exactly what's being expected of them. Or, alternately, they can say hey, you know what I can't do all of that. There's some things that I don't have the capacity to do, for whatever reason, or whether it's time or resources or whatever. So having all that information as the person who's being asked to do something is really valuable in terms of being able to respond realistically. So why wouldn't you want to do that? Why wouldn't you just say, hey, yeah, of course let's do that. But yes, here there are. Here are a bunch of people 30% of the people in the room who are saying I shouldn't have to do that.
Speaker 1:I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to do that. Okay, what are they thinking should happen then? Yeah, what do you think they're thinking should?
Speaker 2:happen? If they don't do that, how is this thing going to work? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So I could tell, and just excuse me, I could tell that there were a couple of the participants that had indicated I shouldn't have to do this were quite dug in about it, right. So they sat a little taller, crossed their arms, like there was kind of like a stance, not a stance, uh, like their heads tilted a little bit. You could see just the energetic and the physical repositioning of a body where, like, I shouldn't have to freaking do this. This is ridiculous. Um and so I think there's varying degrees of how much shooting right, I shouldn't have to do this, and it could be on a one or a two, or it could be what I sensed on. A couple of them were like a mock 10.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right, it was like are you freaking, kidding me?
Speaker 2:And so you know if I, if I think about or feel about, where is that coming from? Maybe part of it is right. I've done this so many times. I don't. I don't know why I have to repeat it again. Right, so that?
Speaker 1:could be one Right I've done this.
Speaker 2:I've I've asked for this thing so many times and I shouldn't have to do it again.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and that is yeah, go ahead I was just going to say there.
Speaker 1:From that perspective, there's already a background of obviousness. As we sometimes talk about it, everybody knows what's going to happen or supposed to happen. So, yes, I would actually agree in that context, when everything you know, it's well known what to do, you really shouldn't have to do that. It's those times when there is no particular shared background of obviousness. That's when. But so yeah, I would agree. Sometimes, yes, all of that information that isn't a clear and complete request isn't needed or shouldn't be needed, and if it is then something else is going on.
Speaker 2:Right. So one of the things that's popping into my brain as we talk about this is yes, I may have asked for this thing, this request. I may have made this request numerous times before thing, this request. I may have made this request numerous times before, but just because we've made the request doesn't mean that the person heard it and understood it in a way that sets them up for success. So I think that's part one, and I'm making this part up a little bit.
Speaker 2:I'm making a bit of an assumption here, but with one of them in particular, my guess would be, although the request had been made a number of times, this wasn't the first time. My guess would be every single time the work product is delivered by the performer, I bet you it wasn't done the way that it was intended, right. And so the first time it happens is where we want to jump in, which we also know in working with lots of leaders doesn't happen right, because I don't know how to have the conversation. I don't know how they're going to take it. You know I don't have time for this. I I shouldn't have to. All of that messy crap that happens, and then the shooting. Actually, I feel like there's a huge resentment and frustration. And what's another word Like?
Speaker 1:I think those two words are really good. I think both the frustration and the resentment, um that comes up for people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and. So if that's alive in our relationship, you may not know what. Charles, as the performer, I'm requesting that you be the performer in this conversation for a moment. As the leader, if I'm feeling shouldn't have to freaking, tell you stuff I've told you before. I now I'm resentful and frustrated because I have a crap ton of things to get done over here and I really don't have time for your. That just made me really sad yeah that just made me really sad.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad that that's not our relationship I'm just shaking that off a little bit, yeah yeah, but can you imagine the impact of that in the relationship when that's unspoken and that's that's the energy that this leader is bringing into so I um, I had a coaching class coaching a leader a while back a few months ago.
Speaker 1:We finished up. What often happened for this particular leader is, you will was impatience, which led to his making requests, but they were full of shortcuts that made sense to him but not to the people he was making the requests of. Now, that wasn't across the board. There was one, two people actually in this particular leader's group that were able to kind of take what he said and put it together and make sense of it and come back with a product that was pretty darn close to what he wanted, but there were several other people in his group who couldn't. That didn't happen and he was constantly frustrated and resentful.
Speaker 1:So, mixed together impatience, resentment and frustration, and that's how he would often interact with these particular leaders. So the work that we did he and I did together was to help him slow down and he found that when he did that and when he simple new practice for him write out his request and then take it to the person and say here's what I'd like you to do and just go through all the pieces and then let the other person say what's missing. And then he'd say what's missing. What more do you need in order to give me a, you know, good answer? It changed the dynamic considerably, but I think that's maybe part of what's going on often is there's a an impatience in a sense that we've got to move fast, and that's not just in the individual people, it's in the culture, it's in the soup that they're living in. It's that continual drive to move fast. So when somebody says I don't have time for this bullshit, that matches perfectly the culture. So within the context of that culture, that makes total sense.
Speaker 1:I don't have time for this bullshit Like literally don't have time for it, yeah. And so yeah, so go ahead. I see you're thinking about something here.
Speaker 2:Well it, oh. I can't remember the exact quote, so I'm going to butcher it. So I'm sorry, brene Brown, but it's basically like we either spend the time up front or we spend a whole lot of time on the back end, fixing, coaching, resolving problem solving. As I again was looking at these lovely humans, the question that was floating around in my brain and I didn't ask it, but I'd be curious to is are you more committed to I shouldn't have to, or are you committed to actually getting the work done right or completely to your level of satisfaction the first time? And I think it's really easy to get dug into the whole again I, I'm, I'm committed to, I'm busy, I shouldn't have to do this. This is ridiculous, they're incompetent, I don't have time for the bullshit, and so then we get stuck in that cycle and and the influence of the culture right where I, literally I don't have time for it. But are you committed as a leader, to like, yeah, what are you committed to as a leader? Right?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's, that's really a an important question for those leaders, and it is challenging because in the conversation before the conversation, I told you about a different team that I worked with some years ago, where the leader of the team there was one person who seemed to be able to take his somewhat vague requests sometimes weren't even spoken as a request and go off and come back with what the leader wanted, and that was not the case with anybody else on the team, and so he regarded them as sort of slackers almost, compared to this guy who was a real go-getter and really kind of, you know, was proactive.
Speaker 1:And so that is challenging, right there. I see that often there will be one or maybe two people who somehow can sort of, you know, read the leader, read what they want in a way that other people don't, read the leader, read what they want in a way that other people don't, and so they're comparing, which of course, we just automatically do as human beings. Part of our brain is set up to do comparison and we do that comparison. And hey, here are these real champions, and then here are the rest of the people. Who, the rest of the people?
Speaker 1:Here's the rest of the schmucks yeah, right, and that is a not fair to the those other people at all, because they just what you you're, you're never to get a whole team full of people like that one or two.
Speaker 1:It's not going to happen in the world. And so can you then take the time to make more clear and complete requests for those people who aren't somehow tuned into you in the way that you would like and that you expect? Take that extra time so that you do get just as good a result from them as from the other people. You just have to invest a little more time to get the result Right.
Speaker 2:Right, and there are things that are completely obvious to me, that would not be obvious to you, even if we narrow that scope into you know, as professional, credentialed coaches running our own businesses. There are things that you're like oh yeah, this is how things flow, this is how I do things, and I'd be like, wow, that's, that's really fascinating. I had no idea. Of course, this happens in a work environment, in a team, different leaders. I've got you know, I'm onboarding someone new. They came from a completely different organization. We have our own standards, protocols, systems, like there's just so much that could be not apparent or not, um, right in front of this person's nose. So I I think it's again. We go back to how, how are we? I'm holding up my sweet little heart. Oh, I have a new heart provider. You guys are gonna like these new hearts are spectacular. I'm a shout out to Marlies you are brilliant. Um, it's a reminder again, like none of us know everything about everything and none of us actually even know everything about our jobs including the leaders, including the leaders.
Speaker 1:You, leaders out there, you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to. You, leaders out there, you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to.
Speaker 2:And so you know again, how are we providing enough or relevant data to set the performer up for success? But I want to poke also at your I'm using the word kind of high performer, this lovely human that could take this incomplete request and still deliver, and I'm super curious at what the cost is to that person. So I want to interject a tiny little story. I worked with a client earlier this year and one of the leaders chatted to me on one of our breaks about clear and complete requests, and he said you know, I really like to give my team the freedom to be able to deliver and, to you know, have space and time and, you know, whatever it is, use their own creativity, their own intelligence, their own experience to deliver. And I'm like that's great. And have you asked them for feedback about how does that work for them? Because the store and I said this is a story I'm making up in my brain.
Speaker 2:If you were my leader and you did that to me, um, I would spend a ridiculous amount of time spinning trying to figure out what you wanted. And if what I was producing for you was too much, too little too. You know too right, too left, too blue, less purple, like I would spend a ridiculous amount of time spinning. And I don't know about many of you, but even in my own world, right here, I don't have time for spinning. I manage my energy, my resources, I try and manage them well, and so spinning takes away from something else that I could be focused on or getting done. And he found that fascinating. He's like I never, I never thought about. I thought I was giving them, like, space to be and space to do the work. I never thought about the cost of not giving them enough detail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's probably pretty accurate. Well, think they're probably those people who would react like you do, or you would imagine you would, if you had really sketchy, minimal detail and and at the same time wanted to perform really well, um, which there's going to be a lot of people like that in any company, in any high-performing team for sure, totally. So all that spinning, I will say in the context of the two stories I just told, both of those or all three I guess, two of them in one company and one in another actually enjoyed what they did. Another actually enjoyed what they did. They enjoyed and it didn't seem to be a burden for them. Now, who knows, five years down the road, whether that might have changed Right, but in the context of these situations and these time frames, which were somewhat recent well, actually, one of them was a few years ago and one of them was much more recent but the people really enjoyed being able to perform at the level they did and please their boss in the way they did, um.
Speaker 1:So again, I think really it's a testament, if nothing else, to the enormous variation in in human beings and how we, how we see the world, how we operate in the world and to sort of privilege one person's way of operating over others and saying this is the right way. Yeah, that's going to be a problem for any leader. Eventually, they're going to find themselves with one person on the team who is the right way and everybody else is, and then what do you do with that?
Speaker 2:Right. It feels like the resentment and the frustration would just keep gurgling and bubbling and getting higher and higher and, well then, no one really on the team is successful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even that one high performer, because they're going to eventually some connection with the other people on the team, because suddenly they're getting the you know, the plum assignments, the best treatment, the best raises and bonuses, and so on and so on, and everybody else is going to be resentful of them.
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah. And there we cause that division, that withdrawal yeah Right, that division, that withdrawal. Yeah right, where. The rest of the team is now about this person, this person, and again, like the impact and the cost to not just individual production and team production, but how you feel about coming to work yeah Right, where. And I, I also I tied in the quadrant of care and how important it is for employees and leaders to know what I do, how I contribute is valued, leaders to know what I do, how I contribute is valued. And we have a shared care. So maybe we've got some crunchy spicy as humans, like we're never going to be BFs, never going to hang out after work, but we both care about X and so, in order for us to be working together and aligned in delivering that particular outcome, how can we come from a place of care for each other in order to do that?
Speaker 1:care for each other. That may, in fact, be driven by care for the mission. Care for what we're doing as a team, what we're up to as a team, and still it works. Care for what we're doing as a team, what we're up to as a team, and still it works. It creates a bond.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the other place that I spent time was in that area of feedback. So the work has been performed, delivered right. Are there any gaps? Do we need to close gaps? And so how? How does that conversation happen? And how much easier it is when our conditions of satisfaction are so clear we can pinpoint to here's what you did. Here's why that mattered. Please keep doing it. So what? So what, now what? Or here's what you didn't do. Here's why it matters, and I need you to take care of that today or the next time you do this particular task. I need you to make sure that that part is included. And what support do you need to do that? Yeah, and it and it was. Yeah, it was fascinating, because I think part of this shooting conundrum is If I'm so kind, take time and provide someone with a clear and complete request, well then they're probably not going to be accountable, and so do I have to sacrifice accountability.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:When I take the time to do this, and you and I both know, no, not at all.
Speaker 1:Well it's interesting? No, no, not at all, but it's interesting. In, in and I've had this conversation with I don't know how many people. I've done, you know a cycle of commitment, work with how many teams, and that piece, that final piece, yes, uh, thank you. Thank you for you know doing this and you did it just perfectly, or close enough, or whatever it is that piece gets left off. Nobody bothers with that. So they're complaining of lack of accountability, but they don't even take the opportunity to create accountability.
Speaker 1:there it's just okay, you know, here it is done. You know, now you have to run off and do the next thing that I want you to do, and it's so simple to complete the cycle by saying thank you. That's, you have done what I wanted. Or, like you said, thank you, and there's a couple things that are not quite what I was expecting. Here's what they were.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about it why can I never find? Why can I never find the books on my bookshelf that I want to point to?
Speaker 1:you know, I don't know, damn it.
Speaker 2:Damn it. And I try and remember them by color, so I was pretty sure this was a red book. Anyway, sorry, what's? The title Burnout. Oh, I don't think I have a copy of that. And we will add the.
Speaker 1:In the show notes.
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, in the show notes. I'm sorry that I can't remember, but I really love tying their work into this cycle of a commitment. And so their theory and approach is that often burnout comes because we don't close the loop. Yeah, that we leave it at. You know 97%, 98%, you know 84%, but we never actually close the loop, which this is my own personal vulnerability in this moment.
Speaker 2:My laptop has 27 tabs open all the time and I often don't know where the music's coming from. Like, literally, that's how my brain functions and my desktop. That how my brain functions and my desktop, and that sometimes causes me to not be able to focus right. There's too many things, or if I'm working on something that isn't clear, I'm spinning about it. So what they're saying is that you know, linguistically and from a burnout reduction standpoint, close the loop completely to 100%. So, thank you.
Speaker 2:Here's what you did, well, here's what I'd love you to keep doing In the next time when we make a request. We'll you know we'll follow the same cycle, but for now we are 100% complete. Nothing else is required on this scope of work or this piece of work, and that loop closes, figuratively and literally, and both parties can go on to whatever's next. And I love that analogy of like closing the loop. And actually, when I asked this particular group of lovely humans what's one thing that they were taking away, one of them said like's one thing that they were taking away. What did them said, like I'm going to be really intentional about closing loops. That's for me and for the other person and I'm like, yeah, in heavens have opened and the angels are singing. Thank you for that commitment.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, that is fantastic and, like I said so often in groups I've talked to, don't even you know, never even thought about that. Maybe a thank you maybe, but that doesn't really close the loop no, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't and I joke about this a little bit because you know canadians are so polite. We say thank you and please for everything, apologize for things we haven't done, and I joke about this a little bit, because you know Canadians are so polite. We say thank you and please for everything, apologize for things we haven't done, and so it's a bit of a giggle kind of, but it's not really that we say thank you for things that we're actually not even satisfied with.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, you're not alone in that. Yeah well, you're not alone in that. I think that that's kind of a common situation. Actually, there's multiple reasons for it. We've touched on one. People are so busy, thank you, and then we're done. I just get out of my office or whatever. Or I've got to send this email to say thank you, but I'm just going to send it quickly and nothing else. It's, in part, coming from that same cultural crush to get so many things done so quickly. You know, we're just we're so busy, we've got to get all this stuff done. We're running in circles, and so that seems like almost an afterthought that's not necessary, and they're not realizing the value, like you're saying, of closing that. So, yes, yay for that person who said I'm going to pay attention to that.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic yeah, oh well, and this is so funny. This popped into my head just now too.
Speaker 2:Um, I can imagine that people are like I shouldn't have to thank people for doing their jobs yeah and I'm like oh, oh, okay, sure, and, and if that is the stance that you want to take, what's the benefit of that and what's the cost of it? As long as you're clear and you've thought about that. But my guess from my heart is that people would appreciate having the loop closed and knowing that they've done a job according to how it was asked for. Not good job, not an attaboy, but you performed and you delivered in a way that aligned with what I was asking for. Here's why that matters.
Speaker 1:Here's why I'd love you to do that again yeah, that's that's really important, I think, for people's general well-being, mental health, if you will. And what's the thing that's always mentioned? Employee? You know these surveys employee, not retention. Engagement, engagement, yes, that's the word I'm looking for. Thank you, you're so welcome. Engagement, that's the word I'm looking for, thank you.
Speaker 2:You're so welcome.
Speaker 1:If only I could have you with me all the time to fish those words out. I would sound so much more intelligent. Employee engagement yes, it's one of those things that I think really does help with employee engagement. Well, I think we probably ought to wrap this one up. We've covered some really useful ground for people. I hope you, as listeners out there, have taken something of value from this conversation for yourself, for your teams, for your coaching clients, uh, clients as HR, um professionals and um. We look forward to oh, go ahead, you're good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're about to say something. Yeah, no, I was just, I was just giggling. There was, um, there was a table at the front that um, after we dug into shooting a little bit, like they, they were joking about and realizing how much shooting actually goes on in our everyday world, and so they were amplifying it and having fun and playing with it, which I love, um, and so I guess I guess my invitation as we close this is you know, pay attention to when you're shooting on yourself and when you're shooting on others, and is that serving, is that supporting you or the other person? And if not, then what do you? What do you want to do differently? Or what do you want to add in addition to, or is there a missing conversation or is there something? And just note, notice how ridiculously often we say should and shouldn't we do a lot and shouldn't, yes, all that shooting.
Speaker 1:They, they shouldn't do that. They shouldn't be saying they shouldn't blah blah, blah, blah blah, and I shouldn't be saying this and I shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah and uh, yeah, really, where do we get that? Anyway? Thank you so much. I think this has been a really interesting conversation, worthwhile. I hope, and I hope you listeners have taken something useful from it. And until our well, actually until next, uh, august, until the fall, the fall until the fall september.
Speaker 1:Charles and I are going to take a break yeah, we will be running some of our past uh podcasts during that period of time, so stay tuned for those. But in the meantime, um, have a wonderful summer and we'll you'll hear us and in the fall and maybe even see us.
Speaker 2:You might, might see us. Yeah, let's drop that little surprise. You might actually see us, all right, thank you, charles.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
