Is your leadership creating trust or dependency?

What if trust didn't depend on heroic one-to-one fixes, but on the environment you design every day?

In this new episode, we explore what it means to shift from "I build trust with you" to "I build a space where everyone can build, maintain, and repair trust with each other." 

Through real stories and practical moves, we map out the leadership behaviours that make trust the default: intentionality in how you bring your team together, asking questions instead of solving problems, surfacing values, and creating structures for reliability and repair.

If you're ready to lead a team where honesty is safe, accountability is normal, and collaboration moves faster because people feel respected, this one's for you.

Listen, subscribe, and share with a leader who needs to hear this.

We want to thank the team that continues to support us in producing, editing and sharing our work. Jonah Smith for the heartfelt intro music you hear at the beginning of each podcast. We LOVE it. Hillary Rideout for writing descriptions, designing covers and helping us share our work on social media. Chad Penner for his superpower editing work to take our recordings from bumpy and glitchy to smooth and easy to listen to episodes for you to enjoy. From our hearts, we are so thankful for this team and the support they provide us.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Tech Woes;
• 0:36 Defining Level Two Trust Building;
• 2:47 A Leader Models Trust On Purpose;
• 5:14 Intentionality Beats Leaving Trust To Chance;
• 8:36 Accountability And Repair After Mistakes;
• 10:28 Transparency Without Oversharing;
• 13:16 Psychological Safety For Honest Signals;
• 16:29 When Leaders Step In Or Step Back;
• 20:08 People Are Not Problems To Solve;
• 22:38 Values Under Conflict And Care;
• 25:28 Naming What We Value To Build Trust;
• 28:15 Resentment Leaks When Silence Wins;
• 31:16 Setting Standards And Real Accountability;
• 35:08 Agreeing How We Handle Breakdowns;
• 38:28 Equal Airtime And Real Inclusion;
• 41:30 Design For Thinkers And Talkers;
• 45:06 Co‑Design As A Leadership Superpower;
• 49:20 Recap: Tools For Trust‑Rich Teams;

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:03

Hello. My name is Charles Feldman. And my name is You're laughing about that. Why are you laughing about that?

SPEAKER_00: 0:11

I'm laughing because I think in this moment we're lucky. I have everything crossed that technology is gonna be with us today. Okay, so you are. Let's try that again. Who are you?

SPEAKER_02: 0:25

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_00: 0:27

I won't laugh, I promise.

SPEAKER_02: 0:29

Okay, you promise. Okay. Hello. My name is Charles Feldman.

SPEAKER_00: 0:33

And my name is Hila Hetker. And we're here for another episode of Trust on Purpose.

SPEAKER_02: 0:42

And today we're gonna talk about something that uh I talk about with clients a lot in one form or another. Um I talk about becoming an exceptional or being an exceptional trust builder. Um I talk about it mostly in terms of being able to build and maintain and if necessary repair trust one-on-one with another individual. But I think there's also, in my experience, kind of a level two of exceptional trust builder, builderness, whatever that would be, um, which is the capacity to build and or to create environments in which other people can easily build and maintain trust and even repair it when it is damaged with each other, rather than so it's not just one-on-one, me and another person, it's these people who I am working with. And this is particularly valuable for leaders who can do this. It's an amazing skill for a leader to have, um, one that's valuable, very valuable to uh learn and practice. So we want to talk a little bit about what that is and how a leader can cultivate that on a team or um within a group that they're leading. So um why don't we let's see. First of all, I'm gonna do just do a technology check. Are we still recording?

SPEAKER_00: 2:12

Still recording. Hallelujah!

SPEAKER_02: 2:15

Hallelujah. We've had a lot of um technical problems with recording the last couple of days. So we feel really grateful that we're actually being able to record today. So having kind of said that, um, where does that, you know, how does that land with you, Ila? Is that your experience as well?

SPEAKER_00: 2:37

Yes, and I'm immediately thinking about, you know, some of the things that we talked about in the conversation before the conversation, and how does one actually do that? So before we get into how does one actually do that, I'm thinking of a particular team that I worked with just a couple of weeks ago, and we did a half-day workshop on identifying personal values. And one of the things that I think I I've talked about this in other episodes is the experience that I've had with kind of observational coaching and really looking for behaviors. And I wanna give this leader a shout out. I'm actually gonna send her a message after this, after we record today, because some of the things that she did intentionally are things that were trust-building behaviors that support that building trust in the entire team. And so we're talking about this, you know, kind of second level. There's one part of building trust in one-on-one relationships, but how do you create that environment? And there's a number of things that she did, even just starting to set up the day. Why are we here? What's the purpose? Why does this matter? What do we want to take away from today? Even something simple as her pace was slow and intentional and thoughtful. She shared a little bit about a personal experience that she's navigating that's a bit bumpy. So, you know, I've got Brene Brown's, you know, vulnerability isn't disclosure. And so this leader didn't disclose, but she was vulnerable in sharing. This is also part of the experience that I'm bringing into the room today and normalizing it. And so I just, yeah, I just talking about this, I want to just really give her kudos because I I think sometimes it's just these really little things that we do consistently that can help create and model that ability for the team to feel like they can build trust with each other. So I want to stop there. What comes to mind for you?

SPEAKER_02: 5:10

Yeah, well, I love the word intentionally, that this this particular individual was doing these things intentionally. Um, she was not leaving the process to chance. Uh and so she identified particular things, I imagine. I'm just making this up, of course, but I imagine she identified particular actions that she wanted to take in this context that would do that. What do you think helped her recognize what actions would be valuable? Do you think it was some was it was it mostly intuitive, or do you think she actually kind of thought about it and had a um a plan based on something outside of just her own intuition?

SPEAKER_00: 5:54

I think um so I think a couple of things. So what I know about her is she is a planner, so even from our very beginning conversations about engaging to do this work together, she had already put some thought to the why, the what, a little bit of the how, and what do we need to do to create even just the the space that day to be able to be vulnerable, self-reflective, sharing, building trust with each other. The other piece, again, what I do know about her is that she's put effort and intention into what she practices. So there's behaviors that aren't just random, but they matter to her. And so she's she's intentional about modeling and practicing those behaviors every single day.

SPEAKER_02: 6:58

Yeah, that's that's that's someone who is um, I think, a not only exceptional trust builder at level one, but also it sounds like at level two, that capacity to create an environment in which other people can build trust and with uh which other people can really identify their values and purpose and and be able to and willing to act on that um in accord with that. Um that's wonderful. And that's that I think is kind of getting to what we're talking about today. That's a big part of creating that environment is to be intentional about it, to not just let it leave it to chance or um random behaviors, but really think about it ahead of time.

SPEAKER_01: 7:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:48

And I the other piece feels like it makes sense to highlight it here is that that level two or that intentionality doesn't mean that we get it right every single time. So this isn't like, yay, I've figured out all these behaviors. I do them every single day. Yes, you've identified behaviors, yes, you're still 100% human, yes, you're gonna screw up and things are gonna go off the trail or off the track sometime. But it's also in then how do I take accountability? And how am I repairing again with that intentionality, not normalizing that we're not supposed to get it out, get it right every single day.

SPEAKER_03: 8:38

Yeah. Which also is uh one of those things.

SPEAKER_02: 8:42

We've talked about this before, and we see, of course, from uh many of our colleagues talk about this as well is this idea that um, you know, leaders often are stuck in this paradigm where they have to be right. Um, they have to, you know, they're supposed to know all the answers, they're supposed to get it right every time, which is incredibly damaging to them as individuals and as leaders, but it's also damaging to what they're trying to do as a leader of a team. So again, yeah, this being able to acknowledge that for oneself and then and then also acknowledge it to the team. You know, I'm not gonna get it right every time. In fact, probably hopefully it'll be better than 50%, but you know, better than chance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:28

Or even yeah, or even, you know, acknowledging that where we are right now and the problem that we're trying to solve, none of us have been here before. So how could we possibly know what to do? But collectively, let's figure that out.

SPEAKER_03: 9:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:46

Right. And for a leader to be transparent and actually say that.

SPEAKER_03: 9:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:52

And invite that collaboration, right?

SPEAKER_02: 9:56

And that's one of the things, going back to you know, what can people do, what can leaders do to create that environment, is model those aspects of trust building that uh that allow people to do that. So modeling transparency. And as you said, modeling transparency is not you know saying everything, you know, uh, you know, opening the kimono completely and showing it all off. It's what's important here, what's important to say, um, being vulnerable in that way. So, yeah, transparency is definitely one of the pieces of uh building an environment or creating an environment in which people feel like they can build trust with each other because their leader is being transparent and also encouraging them to be transparent. Um, in fact, I remember a leader that I had at one point um in literally encouraging me to be more transparent about something that I was holding back on because I didn't think I had enough information and all you know, all the information that so I wanted to be kind of an introvert. I wanted to have all my ducks in a row and everything all set to speak about this. And um so I wasn't saying some things that really needed to be said about the situation and and the fact that it wasn't uh perfectly all tied together. And this particular leader encouraged me strongly to give, you know, give some more information so that the team really had more and was able to work with it, which turned out to be the right thing. Uh so yeah, being not just being transparent one as a leader oneself, demonstrating that, but also um encouraging people on the team to do that.

unknown: 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:06

I I can't think of a specific example, but the I think the concept will make sense is, you know, in that transparency, again, as a team, using this, you know, the problem that we're trying to solve, we've never been here before. And how amazing for someone to say, I'm actually really unsure. You know, or I have a crazy idea, but I have no data behind it. It's just a crazy idea. Or I feel like maybe we've bitten off more than we can chew. Maybe we need to pause and have a conversation about this. Right. And so creating that environment where your team members really feel supported to say these things and not be judged, criticized, belittled, shamed for putting something on the table so that we can have a conversation about it. Because that's what best supports the team.

SPEAKER_02: 13:07

Yes, yes. Um fact I had made a little note of supportive interactions. Um in effect, intentionally making relationship building, kind of bringing it up to be on par with resolving the tasks, whatever they are. Um, so creating creating relationship among the team members so that they can work that way. I just listened to someone, um, a fellow coach and works with teams, does work around trust building, um, talk about a team in which the CEO and four top leaders for the company. CEO doesn't actually meet with the whole team. He tells them to go off and figure stuff out. So it's kind of like the opposite of what we're talking about here. You guys go figure this out. I don't I don't need to be bothered with that. Um, that's your job. Um not really getting into when there's issues between members of the team, not not getting into it again, telling them they gotta go figure it out. Um and uh that's really damaging to trust. The opposite of having a leader who is present there felt, it's known that that leader cares about the people on the team and where the team is going and what they're trying to do, so that they're working out of a sense of shared care.

SPEAKER_00: 14:51

So this one, and maybe I just need you to give me a bit more context, but I feel like this one is a bit of a tricky because where's the balance between your two lovely humans? There's something happening between you. I trust to support you two to figure it out. Obviously, if you can't, I'm here to support you, versus the leader stepping in when maybe it's not required. So there's a there's an organization that I work with. The leader has so much care, like he cares so much about this his entire team, the small organization. So he often gets involved in conversations, or sometimes I think they would be better served, like have the conversation between the two of you. So where's the balance between I'm stepping in to support you versus I need you two to have the conversation between the two of you?

SPEAKER_02: 16:06

Yeah, what's really called for? Is it is it support that's really called for here? Um yeah, I've I've been involved in a number of situations like that, both as a as a leader way back when and certainly as a coach um over the years. And that's something that takes some real understanding. What are what's the what outcome are we looking towards? What are we trying to accomplish here? These two people have um I'll I'll just again use a situation that I was involved with that I can remember pretty well. That you know, there are two people, there are peers, um, their leader, uh, the leader of their team uh had been, well, first of all, their disagreement with each other, there's very specific lack of trust in each other, was causing all kinds of problems because, of course, they were doing the things that people do when they don't trust each other, were recruiting other team members, you know, to my side of the story. Um, they were not working with each other or collaborating, all this stuff. The team leader kept he he tried to support them in kind of talking it through, and it wasn't working. Nothing that just plain was not working. Um, and so he then tried telling them they've got to go figure it out for themselves because it's damaging the team and the the results that we all together want to get and share. Um, and that didn't work either. No. So he was kind of in a bind. Fortunately, um a colleague and I were both involved in coaching in that organization, and and um so he came to us and said, you know, what what can we do? What can be done here? Um and so what we ended up deciding to do was that I would actually work with both, I would sit down with both of these two people and and have help them have a conversation where they could really listen to each other because that was what was missing, is that that they weren't really hearing and listening to understand each other. They were listening to shoot back at each other. So I think for this leader and the the conundrum that this leader faced, um, he he tried both approaches. He tried the um let me help you, let me support you, and he tried the go figure this out. Um and I'm not really answering your question, am I?

SPEAKER_00: 18:56

No, but I which is okay, which is okay because I'm also thinking again about this one particular leader. And actually, I think it applies to many leaders. We're paid to solve problems. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 19:12

So there's there's a problem we need to fix it.

SPEAKER_00: 19:16

Let me step in and and then this particular leader also works in a helping profession. So you got a double whammy, right, where I'm a leader, I'm paid to solve problems. I also really like supporting people. That's the profession I've chosen. But I think if step back to that initial, like, how do we help employees trust one another and build these relationships and model that then it's the intentionality and the pausing to have the conversation? How can I support you? What do you need in order to resolve this? Ah, like tell me. I can see you like that.

SPEAKER_02: 20:02

Yeah, so I think I think you've said you see you pointed to it at the very beginning, problem solving. If my support is in the form of solving the problem or helping you solve the problem, that's where it begins to break down. It's just not going to work from that perspective. Before you can even, you know, get there. First of all, the problem has to be solved by the people who are in it rather than somebody else in that case. Um, so really what um the leader can do is support from more of a, and I I know this is going to sound kind of trite, but from a coaching perspective, from a perspective of asking questions, of making observations, but then leaving it up to the people involved to um to go with go where they go with the observations. And that I think is what happens to leaders often. People are paid to solve problems. And so we're gonna solve this human-to-human problem in the same way that we solve uh you know a staffing problem, or a um not Staten, maybe that's not exactly right, but uh some kind of technical problem or some kind of sales problem or what you know, whatever it is. Um and that's that's not gonna work, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 21:30

No, and I just you know, I'm listening to this, and like people we're not problems to solve.

SPEAKER_01: 21:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 21:38

We're not, and people don't like to feel like that.

SPEAKER_00: 21:42

No, no, and and so you know, we've we use this term quite a bit. Maybe it's simply a breakdown. How do we take care of the breakdown? And if I think again about this leader that I worked with, I am a few weeks ago doing the values, is that the reminder that we don't get upset about things that don't matter? We don't dig on our heels about things that we don't care about. And so imitation, instead of being a problem between two people, is the grace, the understanding, the listening. What do you both really care about?

unknown: 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:30

What's underneath all of this, right? And a leader that can come with that kind of conversation? Like that's incredible trust building.

SPEAKER_02: 22:42

Yes. And it kind of goes back to the definition that that um we use for trust. It's choosing to make something you value vulnerable to another person's actions. What is it that you care about? What is it that you value there? Because that's where that's where it gets sticky for you. There's something that you fear is, you know, that what you value is going to be damaged by the actions of the other person. And it's not until that gets out on kind of out on the table, if you will, um, that you can really have a conversation about can I trust you to take care of that? Can I trust you to not do things that will damage that?

SPEAKER_00: 23:24

I think I'm planting this seed. I think our next episode needs to be unpacking that. How do we help people identify what they value?

SPEAKER_02: 23:34

Yeah, it sounds like you you've got some experience with that because you had a you led a team in talking about that directly. Which again is one of the things that I think a leader can do to create an environment in which people uh can build trust more easily with each other, is to take the time to have a conversation about what each of the people in the team values and what they collectively value.

SPEAKER_00: 24:03

Absolutely. And then how does that show up in our professional relationship in our working together? There was a tiny little story. Earlier this year, I worked with a group, um smaller group at a local university, and one of one of the participants identified that one of her values was harmony. It doesn't sound like doesn't that sound like a lovely value?

SPEAKER_01: 24:35

Harmony.

SPEAKER_00: 24:37

Harmony. So the light side of that was that she spent time, energy, effort keeping the peace. The shadow side of that was that she spent so much time trying to keep the peace that she never voiced the things that were frustrating for her or disappointing for her, or you know, caused anger or indignation or you know, all of those other lovely emotions, because she was so busy working on keeping harmony.

SPEAKER_03: 25:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 25:16

So I'd a I'd asked her about one of the exercises I do when people are working on personal values is what pisses you off. Because again, we don't get upset about things that don't matter. And she's oh, but I never, no, I never get pissed off. I'm like, bullshit. Ooh, really? Well, I didn't I didn't say it in externally. That was my inside voice. Uh yeah, but I s yeah, we talked about what's the impact to your team when you work so hard to keep the peace all the time. And then no one hears when you have something that is a breakdown for you.

SPEAKER_01: 26:08

It was yeah, sorry, a little like rabbit hole there telling that story.

SPEAKER_02: 26:14

And yeah, the important the the obvious thing is that that had an impact. I'm sure that when she was pissed off about something, even though she wasn't she wasn't even telling herself, letting herself know that she was pissed off about it, but it it leaks out. You know, that that kind of energy leaks out and other people see it and other people react to it.

SPEAKER_00: 26:39

And you know, I'm not saying I'm not saying that you're you know pissed off at a Mach 10, but even those little things like a one or a two. You know, somebody cuts me off in traffic, I I'm not gonna do anything about it, but yeah, I might I might be irked about it. Or someone misses a deadline and doesn't let me know, right? Accountability, transparency, reliability. I may, I may not say anything the first time, I may not say something the second time, but of course I'm gonna feel something.

SPEAKER_02: 27:14

Yeah.

unknown: 27:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:16

And if if you continue to not say something, which is not gonna be like you, but can be like other people, resentment builds up. And then you're you're wandering around in a mood of resentment with a chip on your shoulder. Not you, again, but I know people like this. Um you know, and and that causes all kinds of problems. Um, because people don't know what the heck you're pissed off about, they just know you're pissed off about something.

unknown: 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:47

And so then they're in a position of trying to guess.

SPEAKER_00: 27:51

Well, and full full transparency and vulnerability. Like I just had a situation like this, and I do, you know, we do this work every single day. Doesn't mean that I've got it figured out every day.

SPEAKER_01: 28:06

And so there was a conversation I avoided, and I avoided again, and then I avoided it again, and then I was maybe not resentful at a mock 10, but it was definitely bubbling.

SPEAKER_00: 28:22

And so the accountability for me is that I didn't say something the first time. Yeah, yeah, and as a leader, these are again things that we're modeling and supporting our team to do because it helps build that strong trust, not only building it but maintaining it, and then how do we repair it?

SPEAKER_02: 28:48

Yes, and accountability is one of those things that's really important in a team environment because when's so the conversation about how do we bring that up? Um you know, it's it's one thing to have an agreement. You know, people agree on a team, we're gonna bring it up. We're gonna, you know, call people out when they're doing things that first of all, you have to have the conversation about what is our standard for XYZ. So that's a powerful conversation for any leader to have. What are our standards around, you know, uh commitments and completing commitments, and um, what happens when people don't um are not able to uh complete their commitment on time and all that kind of thing? But then we have the conversation about okay, those are the things that we want to do, and those are the things we want to avoid. But now the important conversation is what happens when somebody does something that violates our one of the standards that we've talked about here, and how does that get handled? Yeah, and um Is it and that's probably the most important conversation. I first read about that. And I've Robert Keegan's, I can't remember the name of the specific book, but he talks about that having that conversation about how do we hold each other accountable? What does that look and sound like? So that we're all kind of coming from that same same place. And do we, you know, do we actually go talk to the person directly about it? Do we go to our leader and have the leader, whatever, whatever that is, but we all need to agree. And then people can relax and don't need to be worried about, okay, uh, this person's not upholding our standard. How's that going to be resolved?

SPEAKER_00: 30:52

Yes. Well, and I think natural human behavior is something's happened. I'm not sure how to talk about it. I'm a conflict avoider. I don't want to like have a value of harmony, so I'm just gonna work hard at keeping the peace. Whatever those other influencers in, what typically happens is I'm not gonna say anything. I'm gonna avoid the conversation. And if the breakdown continues to happen, I may start to look for ways to work around you. Whereas if we've had this conversation up front, not if something goes off the track, but when. When when it comes off the track, how do we want to take care of it? What does that conversation look like? Is it between people? Is it with the like all of these things? So yeah, again, when when it happens, it's like, oh, I got my cheat sheet. I know exactly what to do. And I feel supported to do that.

SPEAKER_02: 31:55

Yeah, I think that's the last the second part of that is the most important part, is that I feel supported in doing that because we've all talked about it and we know that even the person I'm gonna go talk to, they may be initially kind of upset or um you know taken aback or whatever, but eventually, you know, pretty quickly they'll remember that this is what we all agreed to do. This is how we're gonna do it. And so well, and so it it go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 32:25

Well, I was just gonna say, if I didn't care about the relationship, I'm not gonna say anything, because why would I? And so the reminder that we're saying something, we're having this conversation because we care.

unknown: 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:43

Absolutely. Yeah. That in fact, that's one of the ways, again, that a leader or anyone else on a team can build trust in the domain of care is to have those hard conversations because it says I care.

unknown: 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:58

Um just go back to something you talked about. The the person who says, Oh, I I I don't like conflict, I'm a conflict avoider, so I'm gonna try and you know, just um make sure everything is, you know, there's harmony here. And it was interesting to watch when you were that you were sort of talking about that because you were kind of moving back and moving back and moving back, which is what happens, I think, to to conflict avoiders, uh, rather than actually confronting and talking, raising the issue, saying here's the breakdown, they move out. And yeah, you're right, they move out and then they move around. Um, but the first move is back and away and out, which is not a place of trust. Um, it's a place of distrust.

SPEAKER_00: 33:47

So yeah, there's there's an interesting exercise I've done with some groups where I have them stand in the line of I maybe not enjoy, but I engage in conflict, and maybe even I enjoy it, to I avoid it at all costs. And I I give myself in as an example, like picture the end of that line, and then get in your car and drive about five kilometers down the road, and that's where I am. So just to let you know, like it's fascinating again when you when you can do this with an intact team in a trusted environment where you can talk about this to see and visually have that representation of, oh wow, I had no idea that you actually love conflict and you engage in it and it's like fun, like get out the popcorn, let's do it some more. And then having that person also see, oh, I see that you don't enjoy it. So it's great, it's a great foundation for so understanding that we all have a different relationship or propensity to conflict, then how do we how do we navigate this because we care? Because we want we don't want to avoid and shove things under our desk. So again, this is stuff that a leader can absolutely help facilitate and have these conversations. And I don't want to lose sight of something you said yesterday when we were trying to record. It was also really important is the leader supporting, encouraging that everyone has space and voice that we hear from everyone, and especially when we're co-designing, creating standards, or how are we going to take care of the breakdown, that everybody's voice is important.

unknown: 36:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:06

Absolutely. Um, there's some research about just teams in general, and you know, the most innovative and productive teams. It turns out if if you sit somebody in the room and they they count um airtime, um, the teams that are most productive and most innovative are the ones where every if people have generally equal airtime. Um the ones that are less productive and certainly less creative are the ones that are dominated by one or two or three voices, and everybody else sits there. So that's just in general, in doing you know, doing the team's business as they go about, you know, being a team together. But what you're pointing to, I think, is really critical, is that that needs to be the case when you're doing when you're actually talking through some of these interpersonal, how are we gonna be together as a team as opposed to the doing side of it.

SPEAKER_00: 37:07

And I giving giving space may also mean to give the so if there's a conversation that is happening and it's maybe a net new topic or something that I feel requires some thinking, then give me time to do that or have half the conversation and then time for thinking, and then we come back. So this is a weird, maybe a weird um example, but remember the days where you know we've got to be creative and innovative on demand. Like we're gonna have a brainstorming meeting and you're all gonna be creative, like go now. Well, and then everybody's minds are blank. Yes, right? So sim similar to setting up conversations where people feel that they can have ideas, use their voices, but also in this moment I actually don't have anything, it's something I want to think about. Can I come back and share my ideas or can we have a part two or whatever that is? So it's also realizing and supporting that not everybody's going to have ideas in the moment. So how's the leader prepping prepping for that and then supporting, yeah, I actually really want to think about this.

SPEAKER_02: 38:39

Yeah, that's absolutely critical, I think, if you want to get everybody's input. Um, because you know it's pretty well known that that um people who are introverts want to think about it before they open their mouth and say something. Um, and it may take them a while to organize their thoughts, and so they're not just as necessarily going to jump right in. Um, they'll with they'll hold back. So if you want their thoughts and if you want to encourage them to do that, and there's that's a great idea, is you know, taking a pause and saying, let's go think about what what we've talked about so far or whatever it is. There's some good books about how to lead introverts. Um so well, that's another thing to kind of as a resource.

SPEAKER_01: 39:29

I would also say so I am typically quite an extreme extrovert.

SPEAKER_00: 39:39

And there are times where I have nothing to say because I'm thinking or the question that's been posed or the invitation that's been posed, I feel like it requires time. Like it's not a you know, pull an idea out of my ass and go with it. It's something I care about or something that really matters. And so even as an extreme extrovert, there are times I need that space. And so this could be part of your co-design as the leader. So here's the outcome. How do we get there to ensure that everyone has space and time to share their ideas and thoughts?

unknown: 40:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:25

How do we do that? Help me design it.

SPEAKER_02: 40:29

Yeah. That actually is that sounds in a sense like a condition of satisfaction. I'm gonna, you know, but part of my my outcome, that's what it needs to look like is that everybody has had time to really think through. Um, and some people will need that time more than others.

SPEAKER_01: 40:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 40:51

So co-designing.

SPEAKER_01: 40:53

Co-designing, which I feel is just like this superpower that we all have in our toolbox, but we forget about it.

SPEAKER_03: 41:07

Yeah. I think that well because go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 41:13

Oh, I was just gonna say it we've talked about this before. Everybody's in such a rush. You know, everything is urgent, which means nothing is urgent, but it's all urgent. And so we're rushing around trying to do all these things. We're in a constant do mode. Um, and I I say we, actually, I'm referring to a lot of my clients. Um, and so that kind of puts a damper on taking some time to use these tools in our toolbox for the leaders to use the tools that they they know they have, but they forget because you know there's the next thing that comes rushing into their office or um comes up in their email or texts or whatever. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:09

And he realized that his one-on-ones with his team were quite ineffective.

SPEAKER_00: 42:16

And so his to-do was, well, I need to redesign how I have one-on-ones. I'm like, well, that's one option. What if you just ask them? What what if you actually like ask them? Could we co-design what you want your one-on-ones to look like? And he's like, that's a great idea. Yeah, like what if we just ask them?

SPEAKER_02: 42:42

Yeah. It's amazing those little things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 42:48

Oh, yeah. Oh, I don't have to figure it out.

SPEAKER_02: 42:53

It's not all up to me, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 42:56

Um, I think this may be a point to kind of wrap this up.

SPEAKER_02: 43:06

Um, and I just want to kind of go back over what we've said leaders can do to create an environment in which um in which the people on the team or in the group or whatever uh can build trust with each other, not only when the team is working together, but when they're working one-on-one with each other out there doing whatever they're doing. And on and so we've talked about first of all establishing what do we care about collectively, individually and collectively, and making that public within the team, within the group. Um, and kind of that bleeds into transparency and being transparent about what's important, what's important to us, um, because that's where the energy is. And it isn't about disclosing everything, it's about saying this is what's important to me, and this is kind of why it's important, not kind of, but why it's important to me. Um, and then and and kind of in a way, declaring that this is where we're going. Um supporting you know, supporting people in being open and transparent and honest, and also in having those uh challenging conversations, and not and and so how do you support them? And we talked a bit about that. It's not a problem to solve. It's it's um something much more organic than that. Um, what else? What else? Uh I know you took brought up some things as well that were important.

SPEAKER_00: 44:49

Yeah, I think coming back again to the consistency in modeling behaviors, and as that lovely leader that I mentioned at the very beginning, it wasn't that she was doing huge sweeping things, it was the small things that she was doing along the way consistently that really helped create, model, and show our team like we're creating this trust together. The way she listened, I think slowing down pace, presence versus, you know, having the it's not about having the right thing to say in response to you, but I'm really listening, really present with you. That goes a long, long way. We also talked, you know, about how leaders are setting people up for success so that their voices can be heard, their thoughts and ideas can be heard.

SPEAKER_02: 45:57

What else did we talk about? I think that covers most of it, yeah. I think the one thing that we didn't say well, we talked about creating or sharing or determining amongst the group what are our standards. Yes. What standards are we um going to agree to in terms of how not so much what we do, but how we do what we do, and then also having a conversation about what is expected when someone um doesn't live up to that standard or violate that standard. How does that conversation unfold and having an agreement around that to make it so that everybody can kind of relax around, okay, I know what I I know what I need to do, and I know what I can expect from others if I mess up. The other thing that we didn't really talk about is talking about trust itself, you know, and and using a model of some kind, a framework of some kind, like the you know, four assessment domains that we talk about, or Brene Brown's um braving model or whatever model you have, but talking about trust in a way that allows people to kind of understand where other people are coming from and what their trust hot buttons are and concerns are, so that um I know um, ooh, you know, this person it's really important for this person um that if I if they share a confidence that I keep it, that I don't let it slip out to other people. So I need to be very careful, uh conscious of that, or whatever it is, whatever it might be, that that person's trust hot button is.

SPEAKER_00: 47:47

That just reminds me of I think somebody you and I haven't necessarily talked about this a lot, but that the confidentiality or the V and Braving is the vault. And how um there's this really great video that Brene has. I'll try and I'll grab it so that Hillary can put it in our transcript and description. But she talks about this vault and that you know you and I keep confidences. That what you say to me, I keep, I don't share, it's not my story to tell. But she says the other part of confidentiality is that I think doesn't get highlighted and is definitely a breakdown, is when I come to you and tell you a story about someone else. Yes. Right? But you're but you're my people, you're my BF, right? You're who I can talk to. But that is that is a trust breakdown. And so if I'm coming to you and sharing confidences or stories that are not mine to share, then I'm actually not holding that V or that confidentiality that's required in trust.

SPEAKER_02: 49:08

Yeah, you're not holding it with that other person who told you whatever it is. And and they may in fact be okay with you telling me, but you don't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 49:18

I don't know that. I don't know that. Yeah. Yeah. I think it will that might be another topic.

SPEAKER_02: 49:26

I think yes, that would be.

SPEAKER_01: 49:28

I think that's it now, yeah. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02: 49:31

Well anyway. Yes, this has I think been a useful. I hope this has been a good conversation and useful conversation for you, our listeners. Um, and that you if you have any questions, of course, you can email us. Um we'll be there information in the whatever you call it, the uh not the liner notes, but our show notes.

SPEAKER_00: 49:54

Our show notes.

SPEAKER_02: 49:55

So yeah, I can I couldn't come up with show notes. I'm back, I'm stuck back in the 70s with liner notes in the album.

SPEAKER_00: 50:01

Um, I feel like there's disco balls and streamers and stuff in our show notes.

SPEAKER_02: 50:08

Aye. All right, Hila, thank you. And we'll we'll be back again. We hope you've had a a thought provoking hour or half hour.

SPEAKER_01: 50:23

All right, thank you, Charles.

SPEAKER_02: 50:26

I'm gonna stop recording. What do I do? We need to.